When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)

Why are those the only options? Do you know the nature of the Universe? Perhaps the universe's past is it's future or it's future triggered it's past. We can come up with many and it doesn't make any of them true. God is not composed of information?Edited by DC85, : No reason given.

Hi crash, But I am not blood kin to that man who was formed from the dust of the ground. I have no DNA nor does any living being today from that man and the woman made from his rib.I am a descendent of the mankind created in the image/likeness of God male and female in Genesis 1:27.So no the Intelligent designer did not create modern mankind perfect like the race in Genesis 2:7-25. If evolution is correct we had to start with a very small species and that species had to evolve into every living thing on the planet today plus all that has become extinct.Are we more complicated today that that first life form. If so then it had to be an upward evolution.Natural selection only selects what will surivive.That means mutations are the only thing that can change the information.So which one of the mutations you mentioned are the ones that can increase the information in the DNA that would improve the species?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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He had hands on managment until about 6,000+ years ago.

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Yep and there we have it. Despite your pretence that you are not really a creationist, but a person just looking for answers to basic questions, that one little slip gives the lie to that.
Why 6000? Because it is the age determined by the bible and some very creative accounting.I'm glad this has become clear because this tactic of differentiating ID from creationism has actually fooled a few people, who have neither the time nor energy to look into it and find that ID is a manufactured movement, created by the Discovery Institute when they finally realised that their other attempt at pretending to be scientific - creation science - was taken seriously by nobody in science and regarded as a joke by most.Fortunately enough of us know the history and have done our homework, so when people like you appear pretending to be interested in science and not religious fundamentalists at all, we know that it is a lie. Also fortunately, the US judicial system also sees through it :-)

Hi Ringo, What does what I believe about different molecules of things have to do with you claiming I have asserted that complexity requires a creator?I have asserted information needs a creator.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Well, if you say so. That's certainly an idiosyncratic interpretation of Genesis. But, you wouldn't be the first Christian who can't read the Bible. Yes. Not so. If evolution worked upwards then there would no longer be bacteria or Archea, but clearly there are.No, the history of life on Earth is an outward, not upward evolution - outward into every ecological niche and outward into different states of complexity. But there's no evolutionary trend towards complexity. The vast majority of the Earth's biomass continues to be extremely simple organisms. Highly complex organisms are a fringe phenomenon, an evolutionary corner case. As I've told you several times, the additive mutations are the ones that increase the "information" in the DNA. Insertions increase the information, as does duplication followed by any mutation of the duplicated sequence. Mutations of all kinds, however - indels, inversions, duplications, transpositions - can improve the fitness of species.

We would like you to provide evidence for that assertion.

I haven't claimed any such thing. I just asked you a question: Do you agree that hydrogen contains "information" in the same way that DNA does?I've answered a lot of your questions in good faith. How about doing me the same courtesy?

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Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

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So which one of the mutations you mentioned are the ones that can increase the information in the DNA that would improve the species?

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How many do you want?
a) Sickle-cell mutation. You may have heard of it? It is caused by a mutation in the haemoglobin gene. It shortens life by decades and can be very debilitating. So why is this beneficial?
Well, it happens that this mutation also gives a greater resistance to Malaria. If you live in a place where malaria is widespread, this genetic mutation increases your chance of living long enough to have kids.PS - you have read too much junk science to know much, but it has already been established that the size of the genome does not correlate to 'better' or more complex phenotypes, unless you think an ear of corn is more complex and 'higher up' than you are?b) MRSA. This one has happened in your lifetime. We kept killing this little critter (bacterium) - Staphylococcus aureus - because it makes us ill. Naturally it would be beneficial to the bacteria to stop us killing it. We used Methicillin - an antibiotic similar to penecillin. One day a gene mutated which just so happened to confer relative resistance to the antibiotic. Naturally this spread, as the bacterium multiplied and others without the mutation were killed-off. We know which gene it was and we can even predict another mutation soon which will make it resistant to vancomycin - which is effectively our last line of antibiotic defence. Once it is immune to that then we cannot treat it.So - two examples of beneficial mutation (for the creature) in your own lifetime. What more could you ask for?Dont answer that because I know fine well that no evidence will convince a fundy...

Hi Biker, And how do we know that such can appear 'out of nowhere'?Can you even begin to imagine what and where nowhere is.Nowhere is non-existence.That means no vaccum for particles to pop into and out of existence in. That only happenes inside the universe in a vaccum.There was no space.There was no time.There was no energy.There was no matter.There was no universe.There was no thing to expand into the universe we have today.You have to make a lot of assumptions to get anything to begin to exist when there is non-existence.The existent intelligent designer is the only possible answer for the universe beginning to exist.Now if the universe has always existed we got a whole nother argument. OK I will take a peek. OK You lost me there.What Big Bang starts?What starts the Big Bang?From where did the spacetime framework come into existence from.There is non-existence. NO THING EXISTS. There is NO THING to expand there is non-existence. There is NO THING including any type of energy you started in non-existence with zero energy. In non-existence there would be no temperature as it would not exist. Neither would pressure exist.Me thinks you need to go back to the beginning.Your job if you choose to do it will be to get existence to begin to exist.Unless you decide existence already exists.Roger Penrose and others are trying to prove existence was already in existence and this universe came from a pre-existing universe.But then they will get into the same regression I am told creationist have with the Intelligent Designer.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi DC85, They are the only ones I know of.If you have any other options I am all ears. God is all everything.He told Moses to tell the peole I AM sent me.That I AM is everything that has ever existed or will exist including all knowledge.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Here we go with the improve the species through sickle cell argument. Its laughable if it weren't for the fact that so many evolutionists actually believe it is an example of natural selection in action.Sickle cell, amongst other things causes lung damage, pain, greater risk of strokes, damage to most organs, and reduced efficiency of the spleen, which leads to less disease resistance. Oh, and because the persons blood is so diseased, the malaria parasite can't attach to it.Also, did you know that people born with cerebral palsy rarely die from concussions caused by playing football, and people born with Down's syndrome almost never get shot by drug dealers for selling them bad weed?Your second argument is also specious because yes, we can predict about how long it would take to get a mutation to alter one protein that would make a particular bacteria resistant to a single drug treatment. The level of complexity need for a mutation can be calculated quite accurately these days, and we know about how many generations it would take for any simple protein change. And did you know by that same token, we also know EVERY mutation that will happen to a group of bacteria, because we have already lived through enough generations to have had every one that is going to happen. In other words, if the likelihood of any particular random mutation is 10 to the 12th power, we can tell pretty much exactly how long that would take to actually happen. And all of them already have. You know how we know this? By those squiggly things you write, you say others can't understand, called math.Because of this, we know that no matter how long these bacteria exist, they will never ever change from being a bacteria, to being something else, through random mutations. Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.

Hi crash, Where did that sentence come from?Did your keyboard produce the information in that sentence?Did your computer produce the information in that sentence?Did that sentence require an intelligent mind to form the words and request made?If it did then you have evidence information needs a creator.On the other hand if your keyboard and computer composed the message and sent it to EvC without input from you of the thoughts in your mind by themselves I am wrong.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Ringo, You are correct as you were replying to a message to DC85. And adding your question under a quote of the two things I said I had asserted to him. I find no mention of hydrogen containing 'information' in the same way that DNA does.Why would it?DNA contains the genetic information that allows all modern living things to function, grow and reproduce.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Dr, If you ran the random mutation generator you know that sometimes there is more characters there and sometimes there are less characters there.But the real information disintergrates over a few mutations to where it means nothing. All the information is lost and you can run the random mutation generator for eternity and you will not get a sentence of information out of it.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

My next question would be, "Why wouldn't it?" Then why wouldn't hydrogen contain the information that allows it to react with oxygen, for example, to form water?

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Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.