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Author Topic:   The Truth About Evolution and Religion
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 16 of 419 (560717)
05-17-2010 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Huntard
05-17-2010 8:03 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion
There is no evidence, as you say. Evidence is the basis of scientific knowledge. There is no evidence that we dream when we sleep. We know we dream because we can make ourselves the subject of our own knowledge. This is called transcendence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 8:03 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 8:41 AM dkroemer has replied
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 9:40 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 17 of 419 (560718)
05-17-2010 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
05-17-2010 7:44 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
I am interested in explaining biology, especially evolutionary biology. To understand biology, you need to understand metaphysics and understand why biology only studies the bodies of humans. Most American biologists don't understand the biology of humans because if you ask them about the human soul they will give an irrational and misinformed answer. American biologists speak of dualism, monism, determinism, and materialism without knowing what they are talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2010 7:44 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 8:57 AM dkroemer has replied
 Message 28 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 9:39 AM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 49 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2010 7:02 PM dkroemer has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 18 of 419 (560719)
05-17-2010 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 8:26 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion
dkroemer writes:
There is no evidence, as you say.
Then why would we even consider it?
Evidence is the basis of scientific knowledge.
I'd say of all knowledge really. For if you "know" something that cannot be demonstrated to be true, what good is that knowledge?
There is no evidence that we dream when we sleep.
Actually there is.
We know we dream because we can make ourselves the subject of our own knowledge. This is called transcendence.
No, that is called memory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 8:26 AM dkroemer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:13 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 19 of 419 (560720)
05-17-2010 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 8:36 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
dkroemer writes:
I am interested in explaining biology, especially evolutionary biology.
Then why bring up souls and metaphysics? That has nothing to do with evolution.
To understand biology, you need to understand metaphysics and understand why biology only studies the bodies of humans.
No you don't. Biology studies the natural world. If the soul is not part of that, then biology does not study it. Metaphysics has nothing to do with it.
Most American biologists don't understand the biology of humans because if you ask them about the human soul they will give an irrational and misinformed answer.
They don;t understand bbiology because they can't answer a question about something that has absolutely nothing to do with biology? What a weird position to take. Do plumbers not know anything about pipes because they can't answer questions about brain surgery?
American biologists speak of dualism, monism, determinism, and materialism without knowing what they are talking about.
If tehy do talk about those things, then they talk about them on a personal note, and not as biologists (well, apart perhaps from materialism). Since none of those hhave anything to do with biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 8:36 AM dkroemer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:10 AM Huntard has replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 20 of 419 (560723)
05-17-2010 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Huntard
05-17-2010 8:57 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
If you were a biology teacher and a student asked you if animals had free will, what would you say? This is a multiple choice question:
1) I don't know.
2) Free will is an illusion.
3) Ask your philosophy teacher.
4) Biology only studies the bodies of humans, not their souls.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 8:57 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 9:21 AM dkroemer has replied
 Message 23 by PaulK, posted 05-17-2010 9:22 AM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 9:36 AM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2010 9:52 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 21 of 419 (560724)
05-17-2010 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Huntard
05-17-2010 8:41 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion
Memory has to do with past and future. But the past and future are mental beings. Past and future only exist when a real being is thinking about the past and future. What are mental beings? Do mental beings have mass? Do mental beings take up space?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 8:41 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 9:37 AM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 9:37 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 22 of 419 (560726)
05-17-2010 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 9:10 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
dkroemer writes:
If you were a biology teacher and a student asked you if animals had free will, what would you say? This is a multiple choice question:
1) I don't know.
2) Free will is an illusion.
3) Ask your philosophy teacher.
4) Biology only studies the bodies of humans, not their souls.
Probably 3. As a teacher I'd never tell them number 2 (which is my position, but as a teacher you can't say that to your students). Number 4 is nonsensical and number 1 is not helping them very much. The one to ask about free will is the philosophy teacher, since he is the one that specializes in those kind of things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:10 AM dkroemer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:26 AM Huntard has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 23 of 419 (560727)
05-17-2010 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 9:10 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
None of the above.
I would say that libertarian free will is logically incoherent, and therefore cannot exist. The more intelligent animals - those that can be meaningfully said to have a will - likely have free will according to compatibilist formulations of the concept. And that includes humans.
Of course the only point truly related to biology is the assessment of animal intelligence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:10 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 24 of 419 (560729)
05-17-2010 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Huntard
05-17-2010 9:21 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
I agree that the choice is between 2) and 4). Your remarks are similar to Stephen Jay Gould's. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Gould spoke about his "private ideas" and you distinguish between what you say to children and what you think. I have no such conflict. I say what I think.
People who say free will is an illusion live their lives as if they have free will. They apologize when they hurt someone, they feel guilty, and they promise not to do it again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 9:21 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Huntard, posted 05-17-2010 9:50 AM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 36 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-17-2010 10:40 AM dkroemer has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 25 of 419 (560730)
05-17-2010 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 9:10 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
If you were a biology teacher and a student asked you if animals had free will, what would you say? This is a multiple choice question:
1) I don't know.
2) Free will is an illusion.
3) Ask your philosophy teacher.
4) Biology only studies the bodies of humans, not their souls.
How about if someone wanted to answer "yes"? Or "no"? Or: "that depends on the animal"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:10 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 419 (560731)
05-17-2010 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 9:13 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion
Memory has to do with past and future. But the past and future are mental beings. Past and future only exist when a real being is thinking about the past and future.
A curious idea which you have not tried to justify.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:13 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 27 of 419 (560732)
05-17-2010 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 9:13 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion
dkroemer writes:
Memory has to do with past and future.
I'd say with just the past. I'd love to know if you have a method for remembering the future.
But the past and future are mental beings. Past and future only exist when a real being is thinking about the past and future.
Nonsense. They exist regardless of a "real being" (Whatever that is) thinking about them. For example, if nobody thinks about WWII, it will suddenly not have happened?
What are mental beings? Do mental beings have mass? Do mental beings take up space?
Mental beings are something you made up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:13 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 419 (560733)
05-17-2010 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 8:36 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
I am interested in explaining biology, especially evolutionary biology. To understand biology, you need to understand metaphysics and understand why biology only studies the bodies of humans.
If you understand that biology only studies non-metaphysical things, then you understand that you do not need to understand metaphysical things in order to understand biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 8:36 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 29 of 419 (560734)
05-17-2010 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 8:26 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion
There is no evidence that we dream when we sleep.
Yes there is. That's how we know that we dream when we sleep.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 8:26 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 30 of 419 (560735)
05-17-2010 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by dkroemer
05-17-2010 9:26 AM


Re: The Truth About Evolution and Religion preaching
dkroemer writes:
I agree that the choice is between 2) and 4).
I said I'd choose 3. My personal choice would be 2. 4 I wouldn't even consider, since that is not an answer to the question. I t makes no sense as an answer to the question.
Your remarks are similar to Stephen Jay Gould's. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Gould spoke about his "private ideas" and you distinguish between what you say to children and what you think.
Of course. I am a teacher (in your example). Would they ask me for my personal oppinion, I would give it to them. But as their teacher it is not my place to tell them what they shoudl think. This is not talking from both sides of my mouth, this is taking my job seriously.
I have no such conflict. I say what I think.
As do I. But in your example I am a teacher, and so I have a certain professionalism I have to take into account. If you would teach only your personal oppinions to students, you would be a lousy teacher.
People who say free will is an illusion live their lives as if they have free will.
Evidence?
They apologize when they hurt someone, they feel guilty, and they promise not to do it again.
That's called taking responsibility, not free will. Free will doesn't exist., free choice on the other hand, does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by dkroemer, posted 05-17-2010 9:26 AM dkroemer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 10:10 AM Huntard has replied

  
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