Marxism

Somebody is making up lies about the objective meaning of stealing?Oh, you mean Glenn Beck again? But I told you I don't listen to him, or Rush Limbaugh. If they happen to say something along the lines of what I'm saying I would have to guess they get it from the same source I do, their conscience.And history too. I could just as easily have made my same argument fifty years ago as now. This idea that stealing is whatever the law says it is would never have been accepted by people fifty years ago. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I just don't have any idea what you are saying, no offense going on. I am very tired and my mind is elsewhere and it would take too much work to figure out what you are saying. I'm sorry.

I beg your pardon, this is how it looks to you, it is not how it looks to anyone with either modernist or Biblical presuppositions. Seems to me I didn't specifically remember it because you had only said "moral law" which doesn't QUITE reflect anything I've said, and it turns out you had left out the UNIVERSAL and ABSOLUTE, which for me are essential qualifiers, especially in talking to anyone who doesn't share my assumptions. I'm very leery of being misunderstood and misrepresented and wasn't sure if you had grasped my point and I'm still not QUITE sure, but I suspect that on the important elements you haven't.It was more important to me to make the point that an absolute moral law overrides human laws. I was trying to talk about a moral law that is in all of us and over all of us and over all government as well. Otherwise "moral law" could be taken to mean something at the human level rather than the universal level and relative rather than absolute.Now that I see the context I see no contradiction in it. The contradiction is added by your own frame of reference. I wish I knew some people who are into creationism or into arguing with leftists because I'd love to have some help here. I had some friends from a conservative forum come here last time around and they got as frustrated and fed up as I can get, but unlike me they didn't stick around. Fair Witness I believe came and argued politics a bit but threw up her hands in disgust and never came back, and Canadian Steve would come back to argue about Islam when I asked him to, but he believes in evolution so he's no help to me in that debate. Others tell me they can't stand the atmosphere where people believe as you all do. They aren't debaters and they don't like conflict and for anyone who thinks like a conservative or Christian there's no way to avoid lots of that here.On creationism I've found myself on message boards with Christians who are theistic evolutionists rather than YECs and there's no way they're going to be any help to me here. They also argue Bible or Big Bang or astronomy when I want to argue biology or geology.I'm sure you know that there are plenty of other people out there who believe in absolute truth and absolute moral law. Oh, believe me, I know I'm an oddball wherever I go, but as far as the basic philosophies go that we are discussing here I fit right into many venues out there. That's what I had in mind. When I get too crazy around here I go listen to some good preaching or Christian teaching where I know what I think will be reflected and augmented.It seems to me, if I may be so bold as to suggest it, that just a LITTLE bit of giving me the benefit of the doubt and considering that I MIGHT not be contradicting myself but that I'm saying something I mean even though it isn't immediately apparent to you, and that your sense of a contradiction COULD EVEN be the result of the clash of worldviews I've been talking about, could help a lot toward just general niceness around here.And you could start by applying that to THIS post.Cheers.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Well, there it is again, Dr. A. What words mean is not a function of what people think. Words have an objective meaning despite all human influences that distort them. Your remark about the elephant and the lawnmower is just your inability to grasp what I'm saying and unwillingness to try.About stealing, you don't even seem to know or care that you have a relativistic view of this and that there is and always used to be another view, the absolutist view and that half the world disagrees with you about such things. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The police DO something in exchange for the money they get from the government. They WORK to protect the community. They are being PAID for their WORK.The needy do NOT do anything for the community in exchange for the money they get from the government. They are not being paid for anything, they are GIVEN the money for nothing they do in exchange.ABE: It happens in both places. Very few liberals or leftists stick around at the conservative sites. I object to some of the conservative attitudes myself but beyond that there just is a huge worldview clash. I'm enormously cheered that I feel I now recognize some of how it happens, but I don't have a solution to it. Maybe, because in my experience liberal Christians think more like liberals than like Christians, and I'm sure they say the same about us on the conservative side. I hope you succeed, but truly this philosophical chasm is SO wide the best I think can be found is people determined to be nice no matter what kind of treatment they get -- and I've seen liberals do that on conservative boards and certainly conservatives and Christians who do that here, but no real change in the worldview of either side. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You changed the meaning of doing or not doing work for the community to having an effect on the community by their poverty or success. Totally different conversation. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The police are doing work for the community.The needy are not.Please don't destroy logic, it makes me crazy.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I have no idea what connection there could be between taking money legally or illegally and what you do with the money you've taken.Stealing has nothing to do with what you do with the money and I've never said it does. It has to do with what you did to GET the money, specifically, you didn't EARN it and it wasn't GIVEN to you by its rightful possessor either.The government is not its rightful possessor. The government stole it from the citizens. The government may have bestowed upon itself a LEGAL rationalization for its theft AND managed to bamboozle the citizenry into thinking they (the gov't) have a legitimate right to it, but they don't, it's still theft.I don't think people on welfare are consciously stealing, by the way -- replying more to latest DC's post than to yours -- and in that sense they are innocent, but the government IS stealing.

And that's OK with you even if some of that involves stealing from others? I make absolutely NO judgments about the rightness or wrongness or stupidity or intelligence of a person's life situation, none whatever, because none of that has anything to do with whether or not the government has a right to steal money.Say you have a friend who is suffering in that way, is it OK for you personally to steal money from a stranger to help her? If it isn't, why is it OK for the government to do it? I don't really think of Suzy herself as stealing. Most people on welfare don't think about that aspect of the situation, they just need the money and the government offers it so they accept it as a gift. Morally they are usually innocent in the situation.It's the GOVERNMENT that is stealing. They wrote themselves a law to justify it. They have simply legitimized the morally illegitimate so they can steal from their citizens.It does seem that liberals think with their emotions, reject logic, and end up rationalizing all kinds of immoral things because of this. You can't even seem to address the idea of stealing at all. Can you see it if the example is you stealing the money in a wallet you found lying on the sidewalk, or you climbing through a window to steal money from a safe you noticed standing open? If you can see that that's not right, why can't you see that it's not right for the government to do that either? See, you WILL not think about the morality of the question of stealing. You think with your emotions: But but but Suzy NEEDS it. Right. Suzy needs help. I'm not denying that. My question is whether that makes it OK for you to steal money to help her? If not, how does it make it OK for government to do the same? Yes, you think with your emotions rather than logic, and you think narrowly only in terms of Suzy's need and not the rights of others from whom the government is stealing. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yes I quoted that way back there in Message 267 I believe against the defenders of stealing who have to make stealing mean what they want it to mean rather than what it objectively means.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Truly truly truly this IS Wonderland and all reason and logic are lost here.

I'm so glad EvC isn't the world, and I'm very sorry I let myself get drawn so far into this thread. The irrationality is beyond beyond. If you can't make sense of what I've written, no translator can help you. Your minds are just destroyed.Cheers.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

That's slander, nwr. Reagan is the hero of the conservatives I know, he's no RINO, he's the essence of conservatism.And your remark about "mob psychology" is perhaps the only truly "incendiary" remark on this thread, as you might as well be calling for force against all the peaceful good people who are demonstrating against this corrupt administration, some pictures of whom I just posted on the thread about media distortion.

The craziness at EvC has escalated since the last time I was here, which is saying quite a bit. I've answered everything on this thread honestly and I've also answered that false application of our Lord's words, which were never intended to apply to tyrannical stealing government but only to individuals, and Christians obey them all.I hope and pray the Lord will take me off government help. A friend insisted I get on it -- in fact she aggressively GOT me on it -- because Christians' taxes pay for it and otherwise the church would be helping me instead. I don't like the whole thing myself. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Then you haven't paid close enough attention to the differences between them and Reagan.