EvC Forum: Playing God with Neanderthals

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Topic: Playing God with Neanderthals

Blue Jay

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Message 87 of 144 (549770)
03-10-2010 6:32 PM

Reply to: Message 81 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-10-2010 5:01 AM

Hybrids

Hi, Chimp.

JUC writes:

What would then be the impact if one or more of us fell in love with them, or was raped by them (or vice versa - I don't want to be politically incorrect!) and produced hybrid children?

Should we allow our 2 species to mix eventually into a hybrid species? It would be taking the issue of racism and multiculturalism to a whole new level!

I don't know whether or not this would happen, or even could happen. But it surely has to be given really serious consideration.

Certainly, it needs to be considered.

However, if we allow Neanderthals and humans to have the same rights, as I am assuming we should, and if we consider both Neanderthals and humans capable of legal consent, I don't see that there is anything that can or should be done about this.

Now, if we discover some major differences in cognitive function that make us skeptical of Neanderthals' ability to give informed, legal consent, then it becomes a question of whether interspecies relations constitute bestiality.

However, I see no reason, as yet, to assume that Neanderthals are not capable of giving informed consent, so I don't think much can be done about this.

It can certainly be a tricky situation.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 81 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 03-10-2010 5:01 AM		Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

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	Message 88 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 03-11-2010 6:14 AM		Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

Blue Jay

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Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 95 of 144 (602288)
01-27-2011 10:29 AM

Reply to: Message 93 by Jon
01-26-2011 8:12 PM

Maladaptive Neanderthals

Hi, Jon.

Jon writes:

Indeed, I cannot understand why anyone would believe a Neanderthal to be maladaptive by default.

I always thought the "maladaptive" opinions were more focused on immunity concerns and social stigmatization than on the mental capacity of Neanderthals.

As Chimp was arguing upthread, these are just precautionary measures. Assuming the worst possible outcomes is a very effective way to ensure that the moral considerations of a given course of action are properly addressed beforehand.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 93 by Jon, posted 01-26-2011 8:12 PM		Jon has replied

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	Message 97 by Jon, posted 01-27-2011 12:50 PM		Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay

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Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

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Message 98 of 144 (602318)
01-27-2011 1:17 PM

Reply to: Message 97 by Jon
01-27-2011 12:50 PM

Re: Maladaptive Neanderthals

Hi, Jon.

Jon writes:

I don't know why a Neanderthal raised as a human being would be socially stigmatized.

I can think of plenty of reasons:

Lots of people will be curious about how intelligent he/she is.
Lots of people will be curious about how well he/she speaks.
Lots of Paparazzi will want photos.
There will inevitably be detractors of "playing God" that will surely cause problems.

Again, you have to assume the worst in order to ensure that the moral considerations of the situation are adequately covered.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

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	Message 97 by Jon, posted 01-27-2011 12:50 PM		Jon has replied

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	Message 99 by Jon, posted 01-27-2011 2:11 PM		Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

Blue Jay

Member (Idle past 2728 days)

Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 102 of 144 (606414)
02-25-2011 10:54 AM

Reply to: Message 101 by Peter
02-25-2011 5:01 AM

Re: Neaderthal Hotties

Hi, Peter.

Peter writes:

So it's just a matter of human arrogance then.

'If it looks like us, and might think like us we better be nice to it (unless it's actually one of us then we can abuse the hell out of it)'.

All based on assumptions of worth where the comparison is 'how much like a human is it?'

How else should we act?

Is it reasonable to expect anything else?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 101 by Peter, posted 02-25-2011 5:01 AM		Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 103 by Peter, posted 03-02-2011 12:12 PM		Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay

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Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 109 of 144 (607210)
03-02-2011 2:11 PM

Reply to: Message 103 by Peter
03-02-2011 12:12 PM

Anthropocentrism

Hi, Peter.

Peter writes:

If humans want to learn they need to try to side-step their own arrogance.

Learn what?

-----

Peter writes:

Isn't measuring worth by comparison to one's own species 'arrogant'?

How else should we measure worth?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 103 by Peter, posted 03-02-2011 12:12 PM		Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 116 by Peter, posted 03-03-2011 9:48 AM		Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay

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Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 120 of 144 (607355)
03-03-2011 10:03 AM

Reply to: Message 116 by Peter
03-03-2011 9:48 AM

Re: Anthropocentrism

Hi, Peter.

Peter writes:

Learm what? ... pretty much anything of any use to them. If humans sit about assuming things based upon some unacknowledged principle (e.g. arrogance) then they will miss an awful lot in an awful lot of fields of study.

But, what assumptions are being made in this case (the case of reluctance to clone Neanderthals)?

-----

Peter writes:

Not sure what other criterion could be used to measure 'worth' (which is itself a fairly vague concept), but it seems to me that basing that on a measure of similarity is arrogant and somewhat counter-productive.

If you don't really have an alternative criterion for measuring "worth," then how can your complaint against the only criterion either of us has been able to think of be valid?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 116 by Peter, posted 03-03-2011 9:48 AM		Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 123 by Peter, posted 03-03-2011 10:57 AM		Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay

Member (Idle past 2728 days)

Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 130 of 144 (607393)
03-03-2011 1:40 PM

Reply to: Message 123 by Peter
03-03-2011 10:57 AM

Re: Anthropocentrism

Hi, Peter.

Peter writes:

In the case of NOT cloning Neaderthals the assumption is that there is something deeply wrong in doing so -- hindering learning opportunities.

But, I thought you were comparing the cloning of Neanderthals to the cloning of mammoths. So, the assumption should be something about the differences between the worth of Neanderthals and the worth of mammoths.

To me, "there is something wrong in doing so" sounds more like a conclusion based on somebody's views of ethics, rather than an assumption.

-----

Peter writes:

Not having an alternative doesn't make the rejection of the stated measure invalid.

In the past people have discovered things BECAUSE they were unsatisfied with the popular explanation, but didn't have a better one ... so they went looking.

So, go looking, then!

You don't do much good by assassinating the king and leaving the nation in turmoil: propose a republic or something!

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 123 by Peter, posted 03-03-2011 10:57 AM		Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 131 by Peter, posted 03-04-2011 5:47 AM		Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

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