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Author Topic:   How did round planets form from the explosion of the Big Bang?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 14 of 156 (542061)
01-07-2010 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
01-07-2010 10:15 AM


Matter can be created --- from energy (indeed, one might think of matter as frozen energy)
Arghhh
What do you need to add to the ocean to get waves? Energy! Does this mean that waves are made of energy? No! Ocean without waves, and ocean with waves are both just made of the ocean.
Energy can excite a matter field from a ground state (no matter) to a higher level state (matter). But both 'no matter' and 'matter' are the same thing: different states of the matter field.

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 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-07-2010 10:15 AM Dr Adequate has replied

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 19 of 156 (542115)
01-07-2010 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Iblis
01-07-2010 5:58 PM


Re: Science vs Belief
Nice essay, with just a couple of red-ink requirements
quarks, sub-atomic waveforms having a fractional spin which adds up to the correct integers to constitute protons and neutrons.
I think you mean charge, rather than spin. Quarks are spin 1/2, as are protons and neutrons. But their charges are -2/3, -1/3, 1/3, 2/3, where-as protons are +1 (and -1 for the anti-proton) and 0 for the neutrons.
and one group of these is scalar in nature, represented by the Higgs boson, which is responsible for what we think of as spacetime.
Hmmm, I smell layman-ese bullshit Where does this idea come from? The Higgs simply gives particles effective non-zero rest-mass. It doesn't generate gravity, or any of that other crap that gets thrown around. The gravitational mass of an astronomical body is 99.9% binding energy, and only 0.1% rest mass!

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 22 of 156 (542178)
01-08-2010 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Iblis
01-07-2010 10:23 PM


Re: Science vs Belief
Super! Explain to me what gibberish like this example is talking about and how it works please.
That's actually all fine. Spin 1/2's can be combined into Spin 1, as happens in this case. But the Spin 1 is an entire nucleus, and is made up of the Spin 1/2 nucleons. You were refering to quarks making up nucleons, in which case all are spin 1/2. We also don't use the word fractional to refer to spin 1/2 - it is usually reserved for talking about the fractional electric charges of the quarks.
I could have sworn that the reason I can't think of a neutron as an electron that fell into its proton and started doing it with a passing neutrino was something to do with the spins not adding up. Am I understanding this incorrectly? Or am I just saying it wrong?
No, the spins are fine - the proton is 1/2 1/2 1/2, the neutron is 1/2 1/2 1/2, and the electron and neutrino are both 1/2. So it all works, and you can think of it that way.
I guess what I'm really looking for is an appropriate thesaurus entry for "universe" in this context. The Higgs to whatever extent is applicable, and the inflation certainly, are responsible for this big mess of expanding whatall that under other circumstances I tend to refer to as "the shebang". Maybe I should have gone with "spacetime as we know it"?
No. The Universe expands fine on its own without any need of an inflaton field. Inflation merely gives us the initial super expansion that explains away all the usual problems.
Seriously though, weren't people arguing for years as to whether the inflaton and the Higgs were really the same guy?
Not quite to that extreme - but it was certainly considered. They are both scalar fields, but they don't behave in same way if they are to represent reality, which is always useful if not totally necessary in our game
I'll try to get back to flesh out the other stuff later.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 25 of 156 (542191)
01-08-2010 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dr Adequate
01-08-2010 5:15 AM


I said that matter is a form of energy --- on that I think we are in agreement.
No, definitely not. That's like saying a compressed spring is a form of energy. Matter is a field, and a field is not energy. You can use energy to compress a spring, but it remains a spring. And you can use energy to excite a matter field so that you see a matter particle, but it remains a matter field.
I didn't mean to mislead anyone
Of course not, but you wouldn't want me to sit idly by and watch layman language dominate when EvC can do so much beter, now would you?
I think this is worth a thread of its own as I've probably been far too vague in the past on this subject. It will also help with "something from nothing" bullshit...

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 31 of 156 (542438)
01-10-2010 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Rahvin
01-10-2010 1:55 AM


Re: A short history of our universe.
Finite but unbounded.
Possibly, but the question is certainly not settled.
It's not possible to have an expanding Universe if the Universe is infinite
Oh yes it is In fact, the classic big bang cosmology, before all this accelerating expansion confusion was known, had three classic variants, two of which were infinite.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 36 of 156 (542536)
01-10-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Lysimachus
01-10-2010 2:54 PM


Re: Lysimachus is Off Topic
It's a deep and complex topic so really deserves a thread of its own. Why not propose one, and I'll join in. I was thinking of starting a thread on 'what is matter and energy?', but that may well be best placed in your thread.
BTW, this thread is about what came out of the Big Bang, not what may or may not have gone into it

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 44 of 156 (543494)
01-18-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Sasuke
01-18-2010 3:30 PM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
Are you saying that in your opinion, matter is a field and that means that matter is not also stored energy
No. I am saying that matter is a field and that means that matter is not also stored energy.
defies college text books
Not any that I would have recommended to my students.
Whatever the case, matter is definitely stored energy(dormant) that can be excited.
No, it is not. But you are free to be mistaken if that is your wish.
The "metal spring" in your example is a good example here.
Yes, it is. And it demonstrates rather nicely why you are mistaken.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 53 of 156 (543507)
01-18-2010 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Sasuke
01-18-2010 5:37 PM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
FYI: You should follow standardized lessons in your classes as to avoid providing less accurate data.
when teaching postgrads quantum gravity in the world's leading theoretical physics department, what standardisations do you think I should have used?
Now, stop talking parrotting crap, stick around, and you may just learn something.

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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 54 of 156 (543509)
01-18-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Coragyps
01-18-2010 6:49 PM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
but no mass is destroyed in the process of potato to poop
Very true, you cannot destroy mass; but...
The heat is from the reassortment of bonds. Only.
There is mass in that there heat, so when that heat dissipates, you're total mass will be less. Exactly as in nuclear reactions. You are releasing binding energy (chemical bonds or nuclear bonds) and that energy counts for some of the mass. There is nothing magically mass-into-energy about nuclear energy; no more so than burning coal.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 56 of 156 (543511)
01-18-2010 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Sasuke
01-18-2010 7:27 PM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
Provide some valid info, please I insist.
why, you seem to think you know it all. Think I'll just leave you stupid; you're funnier that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Sasuke, posted 01-18-2010 7:27 PM Sasuke has replied

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(2)
Message 58 of 156 (543514)
01-18-2010 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dr Jack
01-18-2010 6:31 PM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
when you eat you turn matter into energy
Agh, you can't turn matter into energy. We've got a whole thread on it going on!
ABE: to elucidate - we can turn two particles of matter (electron + positron) in to two particles that aren't matter (two photons), but we still have two particles - two field excitations. The initial particle pair (e-/e+) contain exactly the same energy as the final particle pair (photons). But we have still just turned particles into particles. Though we certainly have "destroyed" the matter
Some of the mass is converted into heat.
No, mass is a measure of energy. Chemical binding energy has the same mass as the heat it becomes.
ABE: stop me if I'm getting too anal
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 59 of 156 (543516)
01-18-2010 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Meldinoor
01-18-2010 6:20 PM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
Sorry Meldinoor, I jumped in too late. Looks like you had it all under control Your last paragraph goes a little wayward, but the rest is close to spot on.
Just read my post on the similarity between chemical and nuclear, and make sure you keep your distinction between matter (field excitation) and mass (measure of energy).
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 73 of 156 (543541)
01-19-2010 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by MatterWave
01-19-2010 1:48 AM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
It's not really clear what matter is.
Incorrect. Our current understanding has a unified picture of matter, forces, gravity, space-time, and energy. So you may well be justified in claiming that "it's not really clear what reality is", but to single out matter is just ill-informed.
We don't know what energy is and what an elementary point-particle really is.
Ditto. It sounds as if you think our current understanding is at the level of layman explanations...
and definitely no agreement between physicists about what matter is.
At the level of this discussion, there is almost complete agreement - between physicists who actually understand this particularly narrow field. Who cares what physicists outside this field think?
When discussing what energy and matter really are, we are talking more about philosophy than physics.
No, we are talking about mathematical physics.
Those who vehemently claim to know what matter and energy are, don't know what they are talking about. This is the cold truth of modern physics, summarized in a few sentences.
No, this is layman bullshit once again trying to sound authoratative.

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 Message 68 by MatterWave, posted 01-19-2010 1:48 AM MatterWave has replied

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(2)
Message 74 of 156 (543546)
01-19-2010 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Sasuke
01-19-2010 3:15 AM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
Then how/why do you associate e=mc^2 with energy and matter?
You don't. You associate energy and mass. Mass measures how much energy there is in a particular volume of space. The mass of a proton is made up of the rest-mass of the quarks (tiny) plus the mass of the binding energy between the quarks (huge in comparison).

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3674 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 79 of 156 (543563)
01-19-2010 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by MatterWave
01-19-2010 5:24 AM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
Mathematics says NOTHING about what an electron is.
Actually, it says everything - that is the bizarre revelation of fundemental physics, and marks the boundary between the classical physics of "stuff" with properties, and the modern realisation that there is no "stuff".
It's been proposed that there is an electron and an accompanying wave at the same time, that the particle electron does not exist and there is never any collapse, but just an apporximation(illusion) of it, that there is an electron only when you measure it, etc. ect.
You are confusing our existing discussion with that of quantum mechanical interpretation. Although that is an interesting topic, once you get away from the sloppy layman terminology, it is largely irrelevant for our discussion here as it actually sits at a higher level.
When I say electron, I mean a one-electron state. I don't care that you are upset that this could be interpreted as a matter wave, localised particle, or whatever. Which of these all depends upon the environmental conditions of which you, as an observer, are part.
Maths only lets you calculate probability, charge, charge density, spin... it says nothing about the nature of the "entity" being described.
Hmm, what is this "nature" and what is the "entity"? And do these characteristics enter into our observations? If I have a set of quantum numbers describing an electron state, then what am I missing?
Who are these physicists and can you reference a source where they claim to know the nature of matter?
"the nature of matter"... at this level we try to be a little more precise with our language. What do *YOU* mean by matter?
If there is no "matter" prior to measurement, or prior to decoherence, or prior to a pilot wave probes the "environment", etc., how can you claim to somehow possess such fundamental knowledge?
Who would be stupid enough to claim that there is no "matter" prior to a measurement??? Again, you don't understand the terms you are using.

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