|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
|
quote:No, this is not what I'm doing. Sorry if my mentions of "historic Christian faith" gave you this impression. The Bible should be interpreted on its own terms, based on grammatical, historical, and contextual details. I mentioned Church history in response to charges that the "faith alone" perspective is something novel, introduced by Luther. Rather, "faith alone" was the understanding of the early church as well and is part of historic Christianity. This does not mean that it is correct, of course, but it does prove that it is not a recent innovation or a perversion of the historic Christian faith.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:People mean very different things by that term.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote: The one and only purpose of Mormonism is to oppose Christianity.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Michamus Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
The one and only purpose of Ochaye is to oppose Christianity.
I can do this all day too... Doesn't take much brainpower to work the way you do.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote: Only by rule-breaking.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Michamus Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined:
|
4. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
Since we are talking about rules, it seems you have a lot of trouble with this one.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined:
|
Hi, Kbertsche.
kbertsche writes: I mentioned Church history in response to charges that the "faith alone" perspective is something novel... You're right: I lost the context of our disagreement in the midst of all the other ones I was trying to maintain. This is where it started:
kbertsche writes: Bluejay writes: And, finally, it is abundantly clear that KBertsche and Ochaye have nothing more than a personal interpretation about what the Bible message is. In fact, ironically, most of the Christian community disagrees with them about their interpretation. Sorry, but what you say is false. What we have been explaining is the historic Christian faith. Message 175 Clearly, when I called it a "personal opinion," you understandably thought I meant that you were writing your own brand of Christianity. I actually meant to say that you were treating any contradiction to your interpretation of the Bible, as a contradiction to the Bible. To be fair, I understand why you interpret the Bible the way you do. I obviously disagree that it is the correct interpretation, or is the only possible interpretation. On that grounds, I argue that it is unreasonable to call contradictions to your favored interpretation of the Bible contradictions to the Bible itself. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
See what I mean.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined:
|
Hi, KBertsche.
kbertsche writes: Paul specifically uses the directional word "work out." This is in contrast to his mention of God "working in" in the next verse. There is nothing improper about this use of English. I'd like to beat the Philippians 2 horse a little more:
quote: Technically, what you called a "directional word" is part of a transtive verb phrase (meaning a verb that takes on a direct object, the direct object, in this case, being "your salvation"). This is in contrast to the usage of the verb "works" in verse 13, which is intransitive, having no direct object attached to it. Granted, I do not know how the Greek grammer pans out, but, in this case, these two words can only be seen as having the synergistic meaning you attribute to them based on a fluke of English grammar that places the words "out" and "in" adjacent to two different usages of the word "work." "Out" is attached directly to the "work" in verse 12, making "out" an adverb and "work out" a verb phrase. "In" is attached directly to the word "you" in verse 13, making "in" a preposition and "in you" a prepositional phrase. So, there isn't a "work out" vs "work in" dichotomy in these verses. Based on the English grammar, it is completely invalid to treat these as grammatically synergistic. So, verse 13 provides no context for interpreting the language used in verse 12. Granted, Iano's belief that our good works are only the result of God working in us* is fully supported by this scripture. However, I reject this one simply because it makes no intuitive sense to say, "Do X," when what you mean is, "Let God do X through you." What good could possibly be done by saying that?
*I'm not sure if this is also your belief: I'm more familiar with Iano's theology than yours Edited by Bluejay, : "out" is not a transitive verbAnd, closing code for italic "intransitive" -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote: You can beat around the bush 'til you're blue in the face, with a Calvinist. Do get to the point, now you're here. Yet again: What does one believe in to be saved? Mormons do believe in belief, do they? One is beginning to wonder.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Michamus Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined:
|
ochaye writes:
See what I mean.
Yep, I've known what you've meant the whole time. As a warning to others, I would highly recommend not responding to ochaye's posts (I'm not anymore until he decides to post something related to the OP, and actually cites sources for his opinions).
To put it plainly:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
Mormonism has officially closed down.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Ochaye.
You really want somebody to answer this question:
ochaye writes: What does one believe in to be saved? Answer: God. Now, would you like an intelligent answer? Then do get to your point. Until you prove that your random, pointed questions have anything to do with this discussion, you shouldn't be surprised that you keep getting ignored. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined:
|
quote: 'You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.' Jas 2:19 NIV
quote: Surely Mormon teachers can do better than 'God'.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Bluejay,
Bluejay writes: If the real reason for my giving the ice cream is not blonde hair, Where in the following statement did you say anything about you giving the ice cream to those who had blonde hair?
Message 222 Bluejay writes: If I were to say, Blonde-haired people get ice cream, wouldn’t you automatically conclude that having blonde hair is the reason those people get ice cream? Well, you should, because that’s the implication of that statement. You mentioned no source of the ice cream.
Bluejay writes: If eternal life is a gift, why does He require you to believe in Him in order to receive it? What part of belief cause's eternal life not to be a gift? Here are the definitions again as you ignored them the first time. Dictionary definition of gift. Gift = 1. Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation Source A legal definition of gift from a legal dictionary.
Gift A transfer of property with nothing given in return. SourceIn strict common law, no contract, with attendant reciprocal legal obligation, exists without consideration. But for a gift, the absence of consideration is a requirement. As Justice Jackett wrote in Littler v Canada: "A contract of sale, which is, by definition, a transfer of property for a consideration, cannot be a gift, which is, by definition, a disposition of property without consideration."
Bluejay writes: There is no difference between our beliefs in principle: There is a big difference. You got the horse at the wrong end of the wagon.
Bluejay writes: Neither of us really believes that eternal life is a "gift," in the strictest sense Speak for yourself. I believe eternal life is a gift of God that you can only receive.
Bluejay writes: so I find this argument to be extremely dishonest of you. Why? Since I believe it is a totally free gift that you can not earn, buy, or do any good deed to obtain. Let me give an illustration.One Sunday morning at the end of the service I pulled out a $20 dollar bill and announced I would give it to anyone who came and got it. I talked for another two minutes and made the offer a second time. I then talked for three more minutes and made the announcement again. One of the adults convinced his son who was 5 years old to come down to the front and get the $20. When he got to the front the first words out of his mouth was, "are you really going to give it to me"? Evidently no one believed I would give them the $20. I handed him the $20 and then I said: God offeres eternal life the same way. He has made the offer all you have to do is receive it. Now you tell me how you could receive it if you did not believe God existed and would give you the gift? God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024