Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?

How about providing that "obvious" piece of information? Sadly for you, I imagine that "obvious information" has already been thrown in this debate by you. Now with your ammunition expended you must make "bang BANG" sounds with your voice rather than your gun.

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Then reference those scriptures.

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I don't get it. The captives are told they can go free, but they want to check the small print.

No. God has saved them by His grace, through their faith. Their works are in no way a basis for their salvation.Regarding Mt 19:17: Yes. You are pulling a single verse out of a narrative while ignoring the overall point of the narrative passage. You again stopped reading too soon, and missed the point of the story: Jesus' point is that it is impossible for man to be saved through his own works. God must do the saving. I believe this is speaking of rewards in heaven: This is related to what Paul writes in 1 Cor 9 about running the race to win a prize, and in Phil 3:14 about "the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." You misunderstand both the Bible and the historic Christian faith.You seem to be starting with Mormon doctrine and trying to pick verses here and there from the Bible to support it. But if you really want to know what the Bible means, you need instead to start with the Bible. Read and study entire books, and outline the logical flow of the author. If you do this with Romans and Galatians, Paul's teaching regarding works should be clear. If you carefully compare these with James, you should be able to see how they can all be consistent with one another. You should also do this with Hebrews, which has some pointed comments against works-salvation. And it would also help you to read some church history, especially the Augustinian-Pelagian controversy.Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

Hi, Iano. There you go again... unfounded assumptions. ----- C'mon, Iano: give me some credit.We've discussed our doctrinal views before... over a year ago now. It was one of my earliest threads on EvC. I quite enjoyed it then, if I remember correctly.I don't remember most of what we talked about, but here's the position I remember you championing in regards to works and grace:

• Man could get to heaven by doing good works.
• Man is evil and fundamentally incapable of doing good works.
• Therefore, man cannot get to heaven by his works.

This is a fine and lovely argument to use against people who believe in salvation by works alone.But, neither the Book of Mormon nor Mormonism says that salvation is by works alone. We also agree that man's works accomplish nothing without God's grace to make up the vast difference between what we can accomplish by our works and what must be accomplished in order to get us into heaven.From the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 2:21:

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21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to anotherI say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.
23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.
24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

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No Mormon believes that we buy our way into heaven with good works. We know that our good works will never add up to the requisite conditions of "goodness" that get people into heaven. Rather, we believe that, after all men are saved by God's grace, additional rewards (also called "salvation") are applied based on our willingness to do good works.-----I have another objection to your argument as it specifically pertains to the example from Matthew 19:17-29. Namely, Jesus laid out specifically what a man must do to get into heaven. Furthermore, it is also stated, in verses 27 and 28 (NIV):

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Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

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Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

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So, not only does Jesus say what a man must do to get into heaven, but He also points out that some of them have accomplished the required task, and will receive the promised reward for it.It seems pretty clear to me.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, KBertsche. So, you agree that, in some form or another, salvation is, at least in part, contingent upon man?----- So did you: verses 27-29 repeat (NIV):

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27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

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Verse 29 states: "Everyone who has done ____ will inherit eternal life."How is this anything but salvation contingent on works?----- I quoted Jesus, dude.----- And you seem to think that disagreeing with you can only be a product of ignorance.It must be a terrible burden for you to have to live in a world so full of ignorant people. My condolences.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

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How is this anything but salvation contingent on works?

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What does one believe in to be saved?Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

I'd refine your(my) first point to read: man could get to heaven if he followed all of the law (and all the nuances of all of the law) all of the time. The rest is spot on. Which leads a person to but one conclusion whenever they read verses demanding work for heaven (assuming they're not also reading from the Book of Mormo)n:"Yikes!! In that case I'm hell-bound - for I cannot keep all of the law (and all the nuances of the law), all of the time*!!- Additional rewards? If an aspect of salvation is by grace, it cannot be given as reward. A reward being something earned. Surely?Could you also clarify something, seeing as we mean different things by 'salvation'. What benefits accrue to the man who is saved by the grace element alone in Mormonism? And do all men receive this?- Here are the verses concerned. Can we take a look at them with a view to Jesus teaching as I'm arguing he/Paul et al teach?: God sets man an impossible task in order that man sees the task as impossible? Because the story of the Rich Young Ruler is an excellent example of same.

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Matthew 19:16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

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The issue is clear: eternal life and what a person has to do to obtain it. There is no reliance on grace, only reliance on self. "What must I do.."

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17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

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So far so straightforward: obeying the law is the work required.

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18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

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Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

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20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

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Clearly this man hasn't followed these commandments. Jesus has told us elsewhere that anger equates to murder and lust with adultery. He has, in other words, expanded on the meaning of the law to the nth degree - so much so that no one can say they obey the law. This man, like every man, is guilty of breaking that expanded law.Rather than embark on a lesson in the expanded law, Jesus engages in a lesson in the condensed law. All 'the law and the prophets' is summed up in but two 'golden rules'. Given this mans obvious-to-Jesus idol (wealth, riches, luxurious life, fine eating/dining), Jesus shoots the fish in a barrel.

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21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect*, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

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The man has asked what he lacks, Jesus tells him what that is. He needs to be perfect(*all of the (condensed) law, all of the time). All it will take for this particular man to achieve perfection is: obey the first golden rule.This man needs to love God: in a right here/right now kind of way. I can't imagine the kind of life Jesus was leading and the kind of people Jesus was hanging with made that demand a simple one to follow for this young ruler. Imagine the smell, the lack of a comfortable bed, the dregs that Jesus hung out with, the lack of servants, the lack of freshly washed bedlinen, the lack, the lack..

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22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

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Is it any wonder? Hopefully at some point he realised.. Which is why Jesus picked this particular issue in this particular case. He could do the same for anyone who supposes eternal life to be obtainable by what they do. The detail may differ depending on the person, but everyone's got gods they don't want to give up.

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23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to (self)enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to (self)enter the kingdom of God."

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Given the context of Jesus' lesson and the question asked by the rich young ruler, I've entered 'self' in the appropriate places above.

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25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

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26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible."

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Again the context is self-salvation: for man, impossible. For God, possible. Thus God's grace, and not man's works. That was the question asked. That was Jesus' response. He doesn't tell us anything about God's way of salvation. He does tell us that mans way is futile.That was the lesson.

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27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

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28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

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The argument here would be that the disciples are already saved men, If so, their saving faith inevitably produces work - in this case following the golden rule. In their following Jesus.Their 'work' is a consequence of their having been saved, not a cause of their being saved.- Hopefully this contextual analysis, with an emphasis on the opening line "what must I do..." will give cause for re-assessment.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

It is this: we're all sinners and can't keep the law. Even atheists are capable of appreciating this (even if they don't believe in God, sin, The Law). If the demand on us is "keep the law and you will be saved" then even the dumbest of us is capable of concluding:"in that case I am lost"The rest of the road to salvation follows naturally from there. I mean: what is a man, who is convinced he is not capable of doing what it takes to achieve salvation, likely to do on reaching that same conviction?If not fall to his knees I mean?Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Sorry, I missed the part where you cited scripture.

What small print has been provided?What statement of salvation from God himself been provided?All I have so far is Man's statement on what salvation is (yes, this includes the BoM, and the Bible. Heck, how many years did it take the Council of Nicaea to VOTE on the books to include in the Biblia?) I haven't heard anything from God yet, so no... I am not being told I can go free.

Most people in the USA have heard the gospel. People who come to religious internet sites certainly have. They don't often need quotes, either, especially the more experienced posters. What people do sometimes is try to get a poster they find difficult to put up a post so that they have more time to find a way round it.Those who accept the gospel change their behavior, and stop being selfish, vile and uncontrolled. This does not suit some people, who want to stay greedy, vile and uncontrolled, so they twist the gospel to try to confuse it.

Which gospel?The one that says if you say a particular invitation prayer and are really sincere about it and believe it, then you're good to go for all eternity?Or the one that says that if you accept the dictates of the ordained clerical hierarchy "in good faith" and participate in the salvific process supplied by your church then you will be given the benefit of the doubt and let into the kingdom via a loophole?Or the one that says "you must be born again" means that it will take many many lifetimes for you to become pure enough to move on to a higher plane of existence?Or the good news that god is dead and we don't have to live in fear of him jumping out of the closet and catching us having fun anymore?Most people in the USA have heard a lot of contradictory stuff, and it looks like some of them go with the bit that lets them have several wives (like Abraham) rather than the bit that says they have to have short hair and not drink (like nobody in the Bible.) The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively for them that believe in it. Further, the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them that believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't.
--Principia Discordia

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And you seem to think that disagreeing with you can only be a product of ignorance.

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I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I assumed that your statement "the historic Christian faith was a faith of salvation by works" means that you do not understand the historic Christian faith (i.e. Paul's writings and their influence on Christian doctrine as evidenced in Augustinian/Pelagian controversy). Or perhaps you really do understand Paul and Augustine and you are deliberately misrepresenting them?

Which gospel? Mormons need to be told?Mormons need to be rescued by people like Iblis?Well, well.

No I dont mean divinity. I mean historical authenticity. We can Tackle the divinity concept after we have agreed that this book is the truth.The remnants of the mines of king Soloman were found near Eilat (Hebrew: ) is Israel's southernmost city, a busy port as well as a popular tourist destination, located at the northern tip of the Red Sea, on the Gulf of Eilat. Home to 55,000 people, the city is part of the Southern Negev Desert, at the southern end of the Arava. The city is adjacent to the Egyptian village of Taba, to the south, and the Jordanian port city of Aqaba, to the east.The remnants of Pharoes Army that followed the Isrealites on thier Tour De France throught the Sinai desert, were found in the red sea..Confirmation of the actual Exodus route has come from divers finding coral-encrusted bones and chariot remains in the Gulf of Aqaba . ONE of the most dramatic records of Divine intervention in history is the account of the Hebrews' exodus from EgyptThe subsequent drowning of the entire Egyptian army in the Red Sea was not an insignificant event, and confirmation of this event is compelling evidence that the Biblical narrative is truly authentic. Over the years, many divers have searched the Gulf of ! Suez in vain for artifacts to verify the Biblical account. But carefully following the Biblical and historical records of the Exodus brings you to Nuweiba, a large beach in the Gulf of Aqaba, as Ron Wyatt discovered in 1978.Repeated dives in depths ranging from 60 to 200 feet deep (18m to 60m), over a stretch of almost 2.5 km, has shown that the chariot parts are scattered across the sea bed. Artifacts found include wheels, chariot bodies, as well as human and horse bones. Divers have located on the Saudi coastline opposite Nuweiba as well.Since 1987, Ron Wyatt found three four-spoke gilded chariot wheels. Coral does not grow on gold, hence the shape has remained very distinct, although the wood inside the gold veneer has disintegrated making them too fragile to move.You asked for one, I gave you two..