God and viruses (namely AIDS)

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That's nice that you believe that, but I specifically requested the science section for a reason. I'm not going to argue with you about your belief system.

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Evidence goes both ways. What evidence from the Bible tells you that God put a virus in chimps?ICANT gave evidence from a Bible story that Satan is also capable of inflicting harm on mankind.

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Well then. So AIDS is ok for a punishment? Have you seen what AIDS causes? Have you ever met anyone with the disease? What action would warrant that sort of "punishment"?

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Irrelevant to the discussion. The reality of the Bible times was that disease was punishment from God/gods. The point of the book of Job was that bad things happen to good or bad people.

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What in the bloody hell are you implying? It's ok for god to be a prick? Again, this is what I am trying to wrap my head around: how can you christians accept that your god does this crap and still say he loves you?

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And since you keep asserting that maybe satan did it: you also assert that satan has the same ability as god? gee, some god he is.

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Again, irrelevant to the discussion. If you don't want to discuss belief systems, then stop attacking perceived beliefs. Don't flit from addressing the text to addressing various perceived teachings.What do you think Bible literalism means? Bottom line, there really isn't anything in the Bible texts that truly addresses your question.Just as it is incongruous to project current beliefs onto the ancient Bible texts, it is also incongruous to project current medical knowledge onto the ancient texts.Try to stay consistent. The text of the flood story isn't about diseases.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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So again I ask: why was it on the ark? (that is, if you believe in an old earth) or did it get wiped from modern primates during the flood, only to be reintroduced? This brings in, IMO, too many "goddidits" or "satandiddits", which can be neither proven, nor disproven.

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When you ask what the Bible says about the issue, one can only pull the info from the Bible. The story of the flood doesn't speak of diseases. Given the stories of the Bible the only answer is that either God or Satan did "it."Even though you agree the story doesn't speak of viruses, you ask why the virus was on the ark, but haven't shown evidence that the ark existed. As far as I know it only existed in the story of Noah.

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I never said it was. But, as I am trying to point out, one of the primates aboard the ark must have been carrying the disease in order for it to be prevalent today. Are you going to claim satan chose which animals that boarded the ark?

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I'm saying you have to show evidence that the ark existed in reality and the story actually happened as written before you can ask how the virus got there.The flood story is a foundational myth and no, Bible literalism doesn't negate that. How can you expect an answer from reality if the boat you're asking about does not exist? It doesn't matter if someone believes it exists or not since that is dependent on a belief system.Since the flood story is a Biblical story, the answer will be Biblical. As I said earlier, in the reality of the author's time, the people felt that God or Satan caused diseases to happen. The story reflects the time.If the ark is real, then you would need to show that the flood covered the planet and that there were only two primates on the ark. Depending on how one interprets the word translated as earth, the flood was probably just a local flood. If it was a local flood, then odds are lower that a chimp on the ark had the virus.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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And no one has proven that god or satan exist either, but you allow that argument? I am asking based on the assumption that bible believers believe both to be real. I don't believe EITHER exist, so I'm not going to try and prove they do.

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God and Satan exist in the Bible, which is where the flood story is found. If you don't believe either exists, then you are asking fanciful questions.

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I don't think it did happen, but the people I am directing this post to seem to think it did happen.....literally. Again, I'm working based on my assumption that they believe it. The validity of the flud is not on trial here, that should be another thread, yes?

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But that is addressing a belief system, not the text itself or reality. You've stated you don't want answers from their belief system, but your assumptions are based on a belief system.Since your target group believes that God and Satan exist and they believe that the flood happened in reality as it is described in Genesis, their answer is going to be from their belief system; but that isn't the answer you want. You already said in the OP: For a bible literalist, god had to have created the virus, since, according to them, He created all life. But when this statement is corrected with textual support for a belief that God or Satan could have provided the virus, you don't want to discuss belief systems.You're asking for "realistic" answers from creationist concerning their belief system, but you're asking fanciful questions and making fanciful conclusions not based on realistic evidence, but assumptions concerning beliefs.

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Why try to bother with the exact details if its a myth? I don't believe it to be true, but obviously some people here do.

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Then how can you disallow answers from the same belief system?

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This we can agree on. However, there seem to be plenty of people who get rather irritated if you say the flud is a myth or allegorical. Heck, That boat don't float is at 259 posts. Quite a few if it was agreed by all to be just a myth, don't you think? Why bother with exact details if its just a myth? I don't believe it to be true, but obviously some people here do.

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Because you are making an assertion in the OP concerning the ark from the supposed viewpoint of a Bible literalist, but you don't want an answer from the viewpoint of a "Bible Literalist". (I feel you're using creationism and literalism interchangeably and they aren't really.)If you want realistic answers, then you need to ask realistic questions. In Message 13, ICANT gave you the closest you can get to a realistic answer given your topic, but then you attack the belief system in your response in Message 14.

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And I repeat: I wanted to know how they were able to cope with that. I have shown how long the virus has been around. Evidence shows it has been around longer than the alleged flud. If the answer remains "goddidit" or satandidit", I guess this should have went to faith and belief section, eh? Or just close the thread since it really isn't going anywhere?

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I'm not sure what you feel they need to cope with. How does the your fact that the virus had to be on the ark, make any difference in reality?From your responses, it sounds like you have more of an issue with the idea of a loving God who supposedly punishes or disciplines with disease. Unfortunately you miss the point that religion and beliefs evolve, just as civilizations do.As I pointed out earlier, at the time of the flood story the people did believe that diseases were a punishment from God. The story of Job was written to counter that belief. The story of Job is a fictional story meant to dispel the idea that bad things only happen to bad people.Some Christians still believe that diseases are due to sin, but I don't consider it as prevalent today.

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I didn't think I would encounter this sort of hassle trying to incorporate real events/science into learning the bible, since the whole premise of the ID/creation movement is to do just that. Isn't that what this site is about?

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If you're going to incorporate real events/science with Bible learning, then you need to really understand the reality behind the Bible and not just guess based on what you've heard about various belief systems. I dislike setups for belief bashing.Quite frankly, when we look at gods/God as personifications of nature, then the response that "God did it" is an accurate and realistic answer.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz