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Author Topic:   Bible/Religious Education in America
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 48 (524038)
09-14-2009 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by andyr86
09-12-2009 10:54 PM


So basically what is the extent of religious education in America? Does it need changing? Combining with science education? Where should we go from here in educating our scientists, theists and philosophers of the future? Or should Britain be more hard in its approuch to a religious/science curriculum?
Don't be taken in by the assortment of media stories about faith/eduction in America. While there is a sizable lobby pushing for creation to be taught alongside evolution, there are only a handful of school districts actually pushing for it.
There are tens of thousands of school districts and I would estimate, off-hand, that only .5% actually have anything in their curriculum that would be different from what might be read in British textbooks.
That said, it does exist in small locales. It usually goes to court and to date, I think the creationists have all lost those cases.
To answer your other question, no, I don't think there is any need to combine science with religion as they are completely separate studies. It makes about as much sense as combining literature with mathematics. They're two completely different studies, and one has nothing to do with the other.

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by andyr86, posted 09-12-2009 10:54 PM andyr86 has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 48 (524043)
09-14-2009 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by andyr86
09-13-2009 3:01 AM


Re: Seperation of Church and State
...It seems to me that the seperation of church and state within the constitution has been basterdizied somewhat.
It has in the sense that some people have stretched its meanings a bit. All the Establishment Clause to this amendment means is that the government shall not infringe upon religion, and religion shall have no preference to government, meaning, the government shall not side with any religion. It is supposed to remain neutral. The instructors are supposed to have a kind of clinical detachment and simply teach the facts, not inject bias.
So in a public school, which is funded by federal, state, or local government money, it is illegal to be teaching religion outside of a religious studies course. The course itself has to remain neutral and simply teach the tenets of various religions. They cannot show preferential treatment to any of them.
America as it is does not has seperation between church and state. It has vitriol and hate between two ideals. Would you think the same thing?
It has Seperation of Church and State, but as I said above some people or groups confuse the issue to mean more than what it does. In essence, certain theist or anti-theist groups intentionally distort it to suit their own agendas.
I'm not an anti american but as a super-power the Americas leads the way in education.
Ha! No, it doesn't, and much to my chargin, as I am American. America has some very good universities but the public school system on the elemantary, middle, and high school level in many areas are abysmal. The United States fares very low on the education totem comparitively for a number of reasons, but most notably due to indifference and laziness. Nations who have far less funding often do better than their American counterparts, which proves that funding alone can't make students do better.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 48 (524102)
09-14-2009 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phage0070
09-14-2009 12:13 PM


False dilemma
Bam! Now you have an official religious czar, who decides what religions get to be taught in school and which ones are not officially recognized. I don't think that is a good idea at all.
A "religion czar?" Why would it have to be so serious? There is already a body of curriculum writers, no need to create something as extreme as an religion czar.
Here is the tricky bit, if you are unwilling to teach that because it is incorrect, then you just told some person that their religion is "wrong". In this case it may just be one guy, but it means that somewhere there is a little town that has beliefs your religion czar does not deem worthy of being an official religion.
What are you talking about? If it's not in the religion, then why would it be discussed?
What you're saying could go for anything in school curriculum, including science. Do we need a science czar because of it?
Your test would arbitrarily decide what symbols count as religious symbols, inevitably telling some poor kid that his family is "doing it wrong".
There is nothing "arbitrary" about it, this is all common knowledge. Maybe we need a czar because % in some obscure place means &.
What then is your solution to the false dilemma you invented?

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phage0070, posted 09-14-2009 12:13 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phage0070, posted 09-14-2009 1:30 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 48 (524112)
09-14-2009 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phage0070
09-14-2009 1:30 PM


Re: False dilemma
Who decides if it is in the religion or not? At what point, if any, are you willing to tell someone that their religious beliefs are incorrect?
Theology classes teach the facts about mainstream religion. How does that conflict with anything?
No, not all scientific ideas are required to be treated equally. There is an objective truth for science, but not so for religion.
What relevance does it have to being able to teach about the tenets of various religions? Would we also need a Philosophy Czar because philosophy is subjective?
My point is that you're really being silly about this and needlessly dragging this out.
Are you truly so prejudiced that you think your "common knowledge" is an appropriate scale by which to measure the personal beliefs of billions? You were raised to understand that certain religions have specific qualities, and there may well be many people who agree, but that does *NOT* mean you have the right to define those religions.
Different denominations have varying perspectives on certain issues. That doesn't mean that there is not a common theme that runs through them all. All that one would have to do for a theology class is to simply go over mainstream beliefs and how they often splinter off. No one has to be right or wrong, just present the FACTS.
That would be like not teaching evolution because Lamarcke and Darwin differed on opinions, rather than just accepting that they came to different conclusions. How is that different from religion?
Seriously, why are you making a mountain out of a molehill?
I am going to ignore the spirit of your rude and snarky comment, and provide an enriching response. I think that people should do their own religious investigation as they see fit, and hopefully come to the understanding that religious beliefs are a personal and highly variable subject. If they choose to stereotype religious groups (as is inevitable) then they do so at their own peril.
So you don't want anyone teaching any religion at all? You expect people to intrinsically know what the Qu'ran or the bible is without informing them what it is?
Why? What does it matter to you?

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phage0070, posted 09-14-2009 1:30 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phage0070, posted 09-14-2009 2:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 48 (524134)
09-14-2009 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phage0070
09-14-2009 2:32 PM


Re: False dilemma
Because there are differences between private parties presenting their view and a government sponsored program. Once you start forcing people to fund and participate in something, that something needs to live up to a higher standard.
That's irrelevant. There are private parties, like ICR, who try and "present their view." It doesn't matter though. There are curriculum writers that have to apply by certain standards. Why would theology be any different?
People don't generally get their panties in a bunch if they don't live up to your definition of utilitarianism, but they do if you try to tell them what religion they do or do not practice.
Immaterial, especially when I've yet to hear of anyone complaining about theology classes being taught at schools.
Your solution is to just not teach it at all. Your real motive for doing so, I suspect, as you've explained on other threads, is to rid the world of religion.
And my point is that you are being needlessly dense. If Christians cannot agree among other Christians exactly what being Christian entails, don't you think there is going to be some disagreement with any one view of all religions?
It doesn't matter since you'll never get an 100% concensus on ANYTHING, let alone religion. What matters is what has always been historically central to the tenets of any given religion.
It is different because you only teach Lamarcke and Darwin, you don't teach Jake the Drive-Thru Attendant's view because you decided it wasn't important. It amazes me that you are so cavalier about doing the same thing with religious beliefs.
Acting as if we need 100% approval for ANY curriculum is ridiculous, and in fact, if you want to be fair, then you are going to have to step aside and let creationists share in your victory by allowing their take on it too.
[qs]Because I would be paying for it![qs] So your whole solution is just pretend religion doesn't exist at all!

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phage0070, posted 09-14-2009 2:32 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phage0070, posted 09-14-2009 5:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 48 (524356)
09-16-2009 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phage0070
09-14-2009 5:11 PM


Re: False dilemma
And there is the crux of the issue. I think there are certain things that are appropriate and acceptable to be taught by private parties and yet are *not* appropriate and *not* acceptable to be taught by public organizations.
There is nothing wrong with teaching theology in public schools, so long as it does not show bias or preferential treatment towards a specific religion. That's the scope of the First Amendment. It doesn't mean pretend that religion doesn't exist.

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phage0070, posted 09-14-2009 5:11 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
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