hyroglyphx writes:
So are you saying that God is not self-evident?
Yes. This from my first post in this thread.
quote:
Perhaps it's because he choses not to be self-evident? A common enough view of the Christian God is that he does precisely this as part of an overall plan in which folk are given the opportunity to decide whether they want to spend eternity with God and what he represents or whether they don't. If they could see God exactly as he is then their ability not to believe what he says would be fatally compromised. And along with it, their ability to chose not to spend eternity with him and what he represents.
Biblical faith is based on evidence: God reveals his existance to the person that he exists so his existance becomes fact.
Therein lies the problem though, as I stated earlier. If you rely on two assumptions, namely that the bible is infallible and that God is perfect, there leaves a void of reason. Allah is also the definition of goodness. The Qu'ran is also supposed to be infallible. Both texts require that it is by faith we come to know and believe these ideals as true. But both contradict one another. So who's right? How are we supposed to honestly know either way?
The mechanism of salvation posed doesn't require that faith of the blind belief type be expressed. What you'd believe at that point is Gods argument - and thae belief would be a conclusion you'd arrive at based on evidence - but you don't believe in God/God perfect/Bible his word at that point.
I'm just posing what I believe to be the Christian mechanism, stating that it doesn't require Gods self-evidency in order to work. In that fashion I've dealt with the OP's objection to the Christian God. I'm not trying to prove God here.
Society has a standard which, admittedly, is often flexible and constantly evolving. Nonetheless, by today's standards, if a soldier were to pick up an infant and smash their heads on the rocks, the world would be outraged. That much is transparent.
We've not established that God approved of such a thing. That said, death by flood can hardly be considered fun and there is little doubt that God approved of that (remembering that we're assuming God exists and the Bible is his word).
What we can conclude is that God has a wrathful aspect as well as the oft-promoted loving aspect. Society might consider God cruel but given that society is a hornets nest of sin and depravity one wonders what they should expect of a holy God? It's not as if the hand of mercy isn't extended to all - one can hardly say fairer than that I would have thought?
Laws only make sense in black and white, as there he has to be some absolute sense of legal and illegal. Seldom, though, do we apply them so rigidly as every case has to look at the overall circumstances involved.
I'm sure God, who sees the heart, knows the difference between stealing food for your children and stealing the shirt off anothers back. The law is rigid only with that portion of the heart which has transgressed it.
This goes back to that great paradox I was referring to earlier concerning truth.
"Every experience is a paradox in that it means to be absolute, and yet is relative; in that it somehow always goes beyond itself and yet never escapes itself." -T.S. Eliot
I'm not that bright. Could you tease it out a little bit?
Meaning, by the assumptions you hold to (that God exists exactly as the bible describes and that the bible is infallible) you set yourself up for absolute success. That does nothing, however, to advance the belief of God or the bible since it requires no evidence to prove itself.
Your logic is therefore circular.
Aah. Thanks. There appears to be a confusion which I've hopefully addressed earlier. I'm explaining a mechanism. Not proving it.
Would you care if God ordered someone to smash your infant son or daughter's head on some rocks?
Of course. And it might cause me to be angry with God or doubt his good intentions.
Even if we are beholden to God, what purpose does it serve? What purpose does it serve God or humankind to kill Job's family, inflict him with disease, just to teach him about obedience to God? What valuable moral lesson was learned for Job's family members?
It has served millions of Gods other children when their own faith has been tested to look at such a pillar. It would cause the powers of darkness to quiver in their boots when they see what God-suppled faith in God can achieve. It would cause delight to well up in any who loved God that such faith could be expressed.
I trust God absolutely and at root (though I would complain on the way) would have that he do what he want with me. For his glory. Have you any idea of how magnificent God would be if he actually existed (I speak from your perspective, I already know that he does)
Why create us at all then? You know that's the one question never answered by the bible -- the reason he created us?
Er... it is. Luke, Chap 3. The geneology terminates in ".. son of Adam, son of God". Adam, son of God. God decided to have kids in other words. And why do people typically decide to have kids? So they can love them of course. Love is something that likes to express itself and what better way to do that than express it to your own children? Everyday people are born (again) and become (adopted) children of God. That's the biblical answer to your question - it litters the pages of the Bible in fact.
Why force us to be weak and then blame us on our weaknesses? He gave us the capacity to sin and then says, "Oh, now look what you've done," and then punishes us for the very thing he imparted.
The mechanism of salvation involves choice. Sin is choice in one direction and is a critical element fueling a persons salvation. Don't knock sin - it can save you as well as damn you. Your choice.
Didn't I read somewhere that you were once a Christian? If so, didn't you learn that "the law (and the breaking of it) is a schoolteacher to lead you to Christ"?
That just may very well be your conditioned response, as captives often suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.
Not applicable. I stepped into God's arms by choice. If at all taken captive is was by the beauty (and pain) of the truth. The truth was, I was as lost and hopeless as lost and hopeless could be (to my mind). Once believing that I believed I needed God to exist - because if he didn't exist then there was no place left to go.
EvC Forum: The experience of converting
..and scroll down a few inches.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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