Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,906 Year: 4,163/9,624 Month: 1,034/974 Week: 361/286 Day: 4/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 31 of 352 (521453)
08-27-2009 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ochaye
08-27-2009 1:48 PM


Is there anything in the Bible that gives anyone the impression that there is more to learn?
Is there anything in the Bible which indicates that nothing more will ever be forthcoming, that after Revelations, God would no longer inspire people to writer anything down?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 1:48 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:12 PM Perdition has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 32 of 352 (521454)
08-27-2009 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Perdition
08-27-2009 2:07 PM


Answer my question. If it's not too embarrassing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 2:07 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 2:26 PM ochaye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 33 of 352 (521460)
08-27-2009 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ochaye
08-27-2009 2:12 PM


Ok, does the Bible say there will be more? No. Does that mean there won't be? No. So, if there is no indication either way on whether there will be more information forthcoming, it comes down to personal credulity regarding some new claim of revelation.
For instance, I like to read books. I'm currently very engaged in a series that is currently being written, and while there is an overarching storyline within which eahc book rests, there is no necessary indication that there is another book coming apart form the author himself saying he wants to keep writing the series. So, do I assume, when I finish a book that doesn't leave any loose ends, that there will be nothing more, or do I hope that there will be, and when I find something that indicates pretty strongly, to me, that this new book on the shelf is, indeed, another chapter in the series, believe that it is indeed so?
Your argument seems to be, well God didn't say he was going to write again, so that MUST mean he stopped writing and will never write again. Whereas the Mormons (and indeed, anyone who believes more than just Genesis) believe that God makes revelations when and where he sees fit and that the story is on going.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:12 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:31 PM Perdition has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 34 of 352 (521462)
08-27-2009 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Perdition
08-27-2009 2:26 PM


'Ok, does the Bible say there will be more? No.'
Ok. Does it give any impression that there will be more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 2:26 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 2:51 PM ochaye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 35 of 352 (521469)
08-27-2009 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ochaye
08-27-2009 2:31 PM


Ok. Does it give any impression that there will be more?
No. Why do you think it would? Would God have put a PS at the end of Revelation that says, "Stay tuned for more, same God channel, same God time"?
He didn't do so at the end of the Old Testament. He didn't do so at the end of any of the books of either testament. He didn't do so in the Koran, either, for that matter. Why would he have done so at the end of the New Testament?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:31 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:57 PM Perdition has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 36 of 352 (521471)
08-27-2009 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Perdition
08-27-2009 2:51 PM


'No. Why do you think it would?'
Because the OT gives the impression there will be more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 2:51 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 3:26 PM ochaye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 37 of 352 (521485)
08-27-2009 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ochaye
08-27-2009 2:57 PM


Because the OT gives the impression there will be more.
It says there will be a Messiah. No where does it say there will be another book, and no where in the New Testament does it say that this is the end of the story.
Even if the OT does indicate there will be more, that doesn't mean every new chapter must be foreindicated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:57 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:36 PM Perdition has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 38 of 352 (521488)
08-27-2009 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Perdition
08-27-2009 3:26 PM


'It says there will be a Messiah.'
And that is precisely the person whom four gospellers and other followers, quoting the OT copiously, wrote about- according to some, of course.
'no where in the New Testament does it say that this is the end of the story.'
But does it give an indication that there is more to come?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 3:26 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 3:43 PM ochaye has replied
 Message 99 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 11:25 AM ochaye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 39 of 352 (521491)
08-27-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ochaye
08-27-2009 3:36 PM


But does it give an indication that there is more to come?
We've been over this. No it doesn't, but I see no reason why it should.
Genesis gave no indication that more would come. In fact, except for the books that mention a Messiah, nothing in the OT indicates more would come. Unless you take the book as a whole, which is not how it was written by any stretch of the imagination, we should stop with Genesis by your reasoning.
The OT also says what the Messiah should do (arguments aside of whether Jesus fulfilled these predictions) why should they have to write a book detailing it, they already had the highlight reel (so to speak). Maybe because there was more to be learned by the details? And the BoM gives more details and offers more to learn that the OT and NT don't cover.
I've answered your questions, can you please answer one of mine:
Why would there have to be an indication of more to come?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:36 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:59 PM Perdition has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 40 of 352 (521501)
08-27-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Perdition
08-27-2009 3:43 PM


'No it doesn't'
Ok. So, the Messiah, who was promised and prophesied in the OT, fulfilled the indication of the OT. There being no similar indications in the NT, the expectation is reasonably, on the assumption that God would use the same 'methodology' for further revelation, that there will be no further event to be expected that will necessitate recording of other revelation. If the divine rationale is that future events are to be pre-indicated, then one would expect nothing more of this nature. Is that fair comment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 3:43 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 4:11 PM ochaye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 41 of 352 (521506)
08-27-2009 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ochaye
08-27-2009 3:59 PM


Ok. So, the Messiah, who was promised and prophesied in the OT, fulfilled the indication of the OT. There being no similar indications in the NT, the expectation is reasonably, on the assumption that God would use the same 'methodology' for further revelation, that there will be no further event to be expected that will necessitate recording of other revelation. If the divine rationale is that future events are to be pre-indicated, then one would expect nothing more of this nature. Is that fair comment?
It's one I would disagree with. It assumes a number of things that I don't think are warranted.
1) It assumes God must always behave the same way.
2) It assumes the OT and the NT are self contained books as opposed to the compilations of many stories and books.
3) It assumes you know what the Divine Rationale is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:59 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:20 PM Perdition has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 42 of 352 (521507)
08-27-2009 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Perdition
08-27-2009 4:11 PM


quote:
1) It assumes God must always behave the same way.
He and his apostles say that he always behaves in the same way, so it somewhat casts doubt on one's project to suppose that he acts falsely.
quote:
2) It assumes the OT and the NT are self contained books as opposed to the compilations of many stories and books.
It takes into account the very obvious fact that the OT has no direct knowledge of the Messiah, whereas the NT is based upon the view that this knowledge has been made known.
quote:
3) It assumes you know what the Divine Rationale is.
That is a re-statement of 1).
Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.
Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 4:11 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 4:26 PM ochaye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 43 of 352 (521510)
08-27-2009 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ochaye
08-27-2009 4:20 PM


He and his apostles say that he always behaves in the same way, so it is somewhat casts doubt on one's project to suppose that he acts falsely.
I never said he acted falsely. I'm saying he may have had a reason for foreshadowing in one instance and not feeling the need to at another time. If this argument is true, it would work on your premise as well as mine. He didn't foreshadow more books coming after Genesis, so his precedent is to not foreshadow...
It takes into account the very obvious fact that the OT has no direct knowledge of the Messiah, whereas the NT is based upon the view that this knowledge has been made known.
Ok, but I don't see what this has to do with anything. All the books are there to reveal God's word and what he wants us to know, right? If he wants us to know more than what was revealed in the NT, he would reveal more, wouldn't he?
That is a re-statement of 1).
Not at all. His acting in different ways in different circumstances or not is a completely different topic than whether or not we know God's reasons for doing anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:20 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:41 PM Perdition has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 44 of 352 (521514)
08-27-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Perdition
08-27-2009 4:26 PM


quote:
I'm saying he may have had a reason for foreshadowing in one instance and not feeling the need to at another time.
Need to? On what basis would there be no need for pre-indication? When Jesus came, he came into a context, one that was revealed for over a thousand years, so that he was unmistakably identified. And yet we are now to use our wits as best we can, without divine assistance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 4:26 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 4:48 PM ochaye has replied
 Message 48 by Michamus, posted 08-27-2009 5:13 PM ochaye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 45 of 352 (521518)
08-27-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ochaye
08-27-2009 4:41 PM


Need to? On what basis would there be no need for pre-indication? When Jesus came, he came into a context, one that was revealed for over a thousand years, so that he was unmistakably identified. And yet we are now to use our wits as best we can, without divine assistance?
Which is how we decided which books to include in the Bible to begin with. Perhaps the foreshadowing of the Messiah was so that we weren't mistaken on something so important as the actual Son of God, but the books themselves are left for us to try and figure out ofr ourselves as a test of our rational thinking ability or some such.
Once again, how can we even begin to fathom the rationales of an omnipotent, omniscient sky man?
Perhaps, he knew the people alive during the Middle Ages, say, were not ready to know that there was more to come. Perhaps, God, in his infinite wisdom, knew that telling them they had an incomplete collection of God's revelations would have lead to more problems than doing it this way. Maybe people would have used that as a means of assuming control: claiming that what they were doing would be sanctioned by God in his next revelation, or that they already had God's next revelation and He had commanded this or that action.
Perhaps that's why he decided to finally reveal the next chapter (who knows if it's the last one) to an relative nobody on an entirely different continent from his previous revelations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:41 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:55 PM Perdition has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024