Atheist Camp

Atheist camp to give children 'godless alternative' | Atheism | The GuardianA "camp" for rational thought. Would you send your kids?As one of the many actvities kids are told that an "invisible unicorn" immune to detection by touch, sight, hearing etc. etc. exists. Can you prove it wrong?Is this "atheism gone mad" or a valid attempt to counteract the faith based thinking of many schools? Is it a rational response?Note: This is not an underhand attempt to re-ignite discussions between myself and RAZD regarding the evidential differences between the IPU and other god concepts. It is about the indoctrination of children. Atheist or otherwise. Any wider discussion of the validity or otherwise of the IPU argument (including from myself) should be deemed "off topic"."Atheist camp". Indoctrination or not? Would you send your kids?

No. I would not send my own son to this. Whilst I advocate free-thinking and indeed atheism as a rational position, this smacks too much of indoctrination to me.Kids are inevitably, at least initially, gonna grow up with the views of their parents regarding such matters. "Camps" to re-enforce such thinking seems to me to be the preserve of the fanatic.Whether theistsic, atheistic or anything else istic....Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Hallelujah!! I think to even know what "rational" means takes a certain level of knowledge, understanding and maturity.I am a Dawkins fan in general. But on this he, and the "militant atheist" community (whatever that is exactly), have got it wrong. Indoctrination is indoctrination whether one agrees with the "doctrine" or not.

Nor would I. But...If you have a set of singular minded adults collected together under the banner of a particular issue arranging activities, expressing views and generally being in charge of kids then I would be deeply surprised if many of those kids did not come out completely mirroring the attitudes of those adults with respect to the issue in question.Whether intentional or not is that not indoctrination?

In all honesty I am not exactly sure what my thinking is regarding this topic. It is probably contradictory and conflicted to some extent. But I do know I am uncomfortable with the idea of "rationality camps" for kids. Let me try and articulate why.I think it was Dawkins himself who said that trying to organise atheists was akin to "herding cats". Well whether intentional or not this whole camp idea seems a little too much like an attempt to overcome that particular problem by catching the cats in question while they are more malleable kittens.By adopting the methods of overtly missionary institutions I fear that the organisers are in danger of emulating the results of overtly missionary institutions. And in doing so they are defeating the very free-thinking mindset that they set out to promote.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

To some extent I would say it is. We are all culturally and socially "indoctrinated". Probably most of all by family and peers. In this wider sense "indoctrination" is not a bad thing. It is in fact a necessary part of development. We have to get our foundation from somewhere even if we later reject all or part of that foundation. But purposefully and explicitly seeking to expose kids to single issue like-minded individuals is taking an extra step. IMHO. In some practical sense you may be right. But schools at least in theory reflect the entire spectrum of thinking in society and are not single issue institutions. In fact they should be seeking to be the very opposite!! I think this is true. Hence my very likely contradictory views on the matter. I think the aim is vaguely noble despite thinking the actuality somewhat sinister.How is "camp Quest" in principle different from a collection of free-market fundamentalists (or whatever other political grouping you can name) setting up "politico camp" to encourage youngsters (aged from 7 to 17) to rationally and "impartially" analyse various political doctrines?That is a genuine question. Not an effort at point scoring.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

I see nothing wrong with this either. It is more the unspoken, very probably resisted but nevertheless present "united under atheism" aspect of the whole thing that I find uncomfortable. Purposefully seeking out exposure to single issue groupings for kids as young as seven just seems too much like foisting ones own opinions down the throats of kids. Even if the stated aim of the grouping is to question such opinions. Oh I don't think kids are delicate and it's not about balance as such.... Again it's the intentional, explicit and purposeful advocacy of any well defined mindset targetted specifically at kids that I find uncomfortable. Maybe kids as young as seven should just be left to be a bit irrational? Maybe this is the best way to discover the world for oneself at that age? Maybe this is a necessary part of the process of eventually working out for oneself what is rational and what is not? I would be less opposed if the age grouping of these camps were 14-19 or something similar. Youngsters who actually have had the opportunity to form defined views to be challenged and who are prepared to challenge the defined views of others. Aye. I would too. Maybe we should volunteer and ensure that it is....? Task on day 1 of camp - "Why is the very concept of Camp Quest a danger to it's own aims"?Discuss.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Frankly such "camps" are a whole lot less common over here than they are in the US. So I understand anyway. As such I have never been on one and am talkiing from a point of almost complete ignorance about the whole experience under discussion.What were the camps you went to like? Were there aspects of overtly religious indoctrination? How do you think "atheist camp" would treat a kid who was overtly religious? Would it be different to your, presumably opposite, experience?

Sounds like you got off lightly with your wedgie.......

Why?Some more info on "Atheist Camp":http://www.bigissuescotland.com/features/view/101

Er no. I don't think that would be a very good idea. I have no problem with teaching kids how to think rationally or critically. But at the same time I don't think that there is anything particularly wrong with seven year olds believing in Santa Claus or other such irrational but fun and fantastical things. In fact I think it would be a deep shame if the oppportunity to be "irrational" in this way were denied in order to promote rationality for the sake of rationality. Isn't imagination an important "skill" too? Maybe the two are not mutually exclusive. I would certainly like to think not. But I am not convinced that "atheist camp" has got the balance right. Like I said I am somewhat conflicted on this issue. Which is after all why I raised it. My main problem with all of this is as follows. If a group of adults collect themselves together on the basis of like minded thinking on a particular issue or ideology (political, religious, whatever) then that is up to them. However if those same adults start collecting together kids on the basis of those same beliefs (or lack of them) then that smacks of indoctrination. I wouldn't support socialist camp for kids, nor free-market capitalist camp. In fact I would find "politico camp" for kids as young as seven run by adherents of a single political philosophy quite disturbing. Regardless of my own political inclinations.Now we have what is dubbed "atheist camp". I think the aim of teaching rational critical thinking is noble. I think there is a need in society for the promotion of such ideas. I even think kids should be taught such things in some contexts pretty early on in life.BUT at the end of the day what we have here is a group of like minded adults united under the banner of atheism effectively grouping kids under that same ideological banner. No matter how noble, well intentioned or even necessary I may think the stated aims of the camps are I remain uncomfortable with single issue ideological groupings for kids. Any issue.I remain somewhet conflicted because, as previoulsy stated, I think the proclaimed aims of the camps are vaguely noble whilst I find the actuality somewhat sinister. So I remain in favour of promoting rational thought whilst still being pretty firmly bedded to the reasons for my original discomfort with the idea of "atheist camp".Whether you agree or disagree does that at least make sense?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

I think the people involved have a genuine desire to promote rational and independent thinking in kids. I definitely do not think that their intention is indoctrination and I think they would protest that allegation quite strongly and no doubt quite convincingly.However: My own view is that, no matter how well intentioned, if a group of adults united by an idea group kids together in a way that mirrors overtly indoctrinating organisations then it is naive to think that similar indoctrination is not a serious possibility.If you mirror the methods the chances are you will mirror the results. Intended or otherwise. IMHO.But as I have said repeatedly I remain conflicted on the issue and if anyone wants to convince me I am wrong I am open to arguments.

Conflicted in the sense that I think the stated aims of the camp, namely to promote independent thought and teach critical thinking skills to kids, are very valid whilst at the same time thinking the camps themselves are not a great idea for the reasons previously mentioned.

Nor did they acquire critical thinking skills alone.Kids need to be taught these things. I just think "Atheist Camp", by adopting the methods used by overtly indoctrinating institutions, is in danger of defeating it's own aims.