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Author Topic:   Atheist Camp
Straggler
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Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1 of 31 (517726)
08-02-2009 10:52 AM


Atheist camp to give children 'godless alternative' | Atheism | The Guardian
A "camp" for rational thought. Would you send your kids?
As one of the many actvities kids are told that an "invisible unicorn" immune to detection by touch, sight, hearing etc. etc. exists. Can you prove it wrong?
Is this "atheism gone mad" or a valid attempt to counteract the faith based thinking of many schools? Is it a rational response?
Note: This is not an underhand attempt to re-ignite discussions between myself and RAZD regarding the evidential differences between the IPU and other god concepts. It is about the indoctrination of children. Atheist or otherwise. Any wider discussion of the validity or otherwise of the IPU argument (including from myself) should be deemed "off topic".
"Atheist camp". Indoctrination or not? Would you send your kids?

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AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 31 (517747)
08-02-2009 12:08 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Atheist Camp thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 3 of 31 (517751)
08-02-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
08-02-2009 10:52 AM


To Answer My Own Question...
No. I would not send my own son to this. Whilst I advocate free-thinking and indeed atheism as a rational position, this smacks too much of indoctrination to me.
Kids are inevitably, at least initially, gonna grow up with the views of their parents regarding such matters. "Camps" to re-enforce such thinking seems to me to be the preserve of the fanatic.
Whether theistsic, atheistic or anything else istic....
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 31 (517760)
08-02-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
08-02-2009 10:52 AM


I don't like camps in general, but the most attractive option would be a neutral camp. Rational thought is a way of life, not something that you reinforce with camps.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 5 of 31 (517765)
08-02-2009 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phage0070
08-02-2009 12:46 PM


Indoctrination
I don't like camps in general
Hallelujah!!
Rational thought is a way of life, not something that you reinforce with camps. I don't like camps in general, but the most attractive option would be a neutral camp. Rational thought is a way of life, not something that you reinforce with camps.
I think to even know what "rational" means takes a certain level of knowledge, understanding and maturity.
I am a Dawkins fan in general. But on this he, and the "militant atheist" community (whatever that is exactly), have got it wrong. Indoctrination is indoctrination whether one agrees with the "doctrine" or not.

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Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 6 of 31 (517944)
08-03-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
08-02-2009 10:52 AM


Indoctrination is not encouraging children to explore reality, encouraging them to pay attention to experts while also not relying on someone purely on grounds of authority.
I can't say for sure what these camps are like since I've barely investigated them, but from what I have heard these are quite different creatures than those we would accuse of being religious indoctrination camps. After all - how often would a Christian 'indoctrination-type' camp invite a Muslim to talk about their beliefs?
I wouldn't send my kids - if I had any - to a camp to learn about humanism, or philosophy unless they asked to go there. I may point out that such camps exist if I felt my child(ren) might be interested.
Any children I have will naturally learn, and be taught about thinking, different approaches to thinking - possible problems with certain modes of thinking, and be taught to keep a watchful eye on their own ideas and beliefs lest they lead to problems or errors. If they want to meet up with like minded kids at a camp then so be it.
Camp Quest FAQ
Is this "atheism gone mad" or a valid attempt to counteract the faith based thinking of many schools? Is it a rational response?
As far as I can tell, neither. It is a camp with an academic and philosophical slant. It looks like Scouts only without the enforced oath of allegiance to the Queen and God and one's country and instead with discussion of humanism, philosophy, epistemology and morality. It has the potential to go horribly in the wrong direction, of course, but in and of itself it isn't a big problem anymore than the Scouts is necessarily problematic (though it has certainly gone down some dodgy paths).
One of the criticism thrown at atheists - a fundamental failing of their 'philosophy' is touted as being the lack of community. While creating a community can result in its own problems, I certainly celebrate these initiatives to do that very thing.
If the kids are forced to stand up and declare "I promise to believe that there is no God and the Queen is merely a traditionalist figurehead relic from an outdated mode of government", then we have a problem. If they teach kids about non supernatural methods of knowing and morality - I wouldn't necessarily call that indoctrination.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 7 of 31 (517947)
08-03-2009 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
08-03-2009 12:13 PM


Indoctrination
If they teach kids about non supernatural methods of knowing and morality - I wouldn't necessarily call that indoctrination.
Nor would I. But...
If you have a set of singular minded adults collected together under the banner of a particular issue arranging activities, expressing views and generally being in charge of kids then I would be deeply surprised if many of those kids did not come out completely mirroring the attitudes of those adults with respect to the issue in question.
Whether intentional or not is that not indoctrination?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 8 of 31 (517965)
08-03-2009 2:44 PM


Herding Kittens
In all honesty I am not exactly sure what my thinking is regarding this topic. It is probably contradictory and conflicted to some extent. But I do know I am uncomfortable with the idea of "rationality camps" for kids. Let me try and articulate why.
I think it was Dawkins himself who said that trying to organise atheists was akin to "herding cats". Well whether intentional or not this whole camp idea seems a little too much like an attempt to overcome that particular problem by catching the cats in question while they are more malleable kittens.
By adopting the methods of overtly missionary institutions I fear that the organisers are in danger of emulating the results of overtly missionary institutions. And in doing so they are defeating the very free-thinking mindset that they set out to promote.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

  
Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 9 of 31 (517974)
08-03-2009 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Straggler
08-03-2009 12:33 PM


Re: Indoctrination
If you have a set of singular minded adults collected together under the banner of a particular issue arranging activities, expressing views and generally being in charge of kids then I would be deeply surprised if many of those kids did not come out completely mirroring the attitudes of those adults with respect to the issue in question.
Whether intentional or not is that not indoctrination?
I wouldn't necessarily class it as such. Though I would be surprised if kids completely mirrored the adults, but they would certainly be more inclined towards those ideas. If we consider this to be indoctrination - then any community minded activity for kids is in danger of being indoctrination. I help with a secular camp for kids (its not philosophically orientated, it is centred around music and history): all us adults share very similar views, and many of the children that attend become adult helpers. Is this indoctrination?
It isn't indoctrination to simply expose kids to ideas - even though we know they will be more inclined towards accepting the ideas of the authority figures they look up to. I am willing to bet that there is more indoctrination in school classrooms than there is at Camp Quest - though I am of course open to correction.
As a rough working definition, I'm using indoctrination roughly thus:
quote:
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.
The spirit of Camp Quest is to (at least try) to critically examine the 'doctrine' in question.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 31 (517980)
08-03-2009 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Modulous
08-03-2009 3:32 PM


Re: Indoctrination
If we consider this to be indoctrination - then any community minded activity for kids is in danger of being indoctrination. I help with a secular camp for kids (its not philosophically orientated, it is centred around music and history): all us adults share very similar views, and many of the children that attend become adult helpers. Is this indoctrination?
To some extent I would say it is. We are all culturally and socially "indoctrinated". Probably most of all by family and peers. In this wider sense "indoctrination" is not a bad thing. It is in fact a necessary part of development. We have to get our foundation from somewhere even if we later reject all or part of that foundation. But purposefully and explicitly seeking to expose kids to single issue like-minded individuals is taking an extra step. IMHO.
It isn't indoctrination to simply expose kids to ideas - even though we know they will be more inclined towards accepting the ideas of the authority figures they look up to. I am willing to bet that there is more indoctrination in school classrooms than there is at Camp Quest - though I am of course open to correction.
In some practical sense you may be right. But schools at least in theory reflect the entire spectrum of thinking in society and are not single issue institutions. In fact they should be seeking to be the very opposite!!
The spirit of Camp Quest is to (at least try) to critically examine the 'doctrine' in question.
I think this is true. Hence my very likely contradictory views on the matter. I think the aim is vaguely noble despite thinking the actuality somewhat sinister.
How is "camp Quest" in principle different from a collection of free-market fundamentalists (or whatever other political grouping you can name) setting up "politico camp" to encourage youngsters (aged from 7 to 17) to rationally and "impartially" analyse various political doctrines?
That is a genuine question. Not an effort at point scoring.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 11 of 31 (517996)
08-03-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Straggler
08-03-2009 3:53 PM


Re: Indoctrination
How is "camp Quest" in principle different from a collection of free-market fundamentalists (or whatever other political grouping you can name) setting up "politico camp" to encourage youngsters to rationally analyse political doctrines?
That is a genuine question. Not an effort at point scoring.
Probably not. There are many important subjects that normal school life is woefully inadequate on, and parent's often have difficulty teaching to kids. Politics, economics, finance and philosophy amongst them.
However - as originally noted - it can easily get off the beaten path and become indoctrination. It really does depend on the details. If kids find themselves socially penalised for disagreeing with the humanists or the free-marketers, then there may be a problem. If the organisers don't attempt to prevent the social penalty - the problem becomes quite serious.
But teaching kids to be nice to each other, cooperate etc etc, and doing so with a referencing saints, God as inspiration is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned (I did that in Scouts). So I don't see why we should get nervous about largely the same thing happening with a more secular view...with alternative view points being represented too.
Obviously there is a line, but if we start treating kids as delicate snowflakes who cannot be exposed to one viewpoint without balancing it perfectly with others...we aren't doing them any favours.
That's my view - but I appreciate that given what we have seen others do (especially, but not limited to the religious) with these kinds of camps, it is worth being careful. We don't want to be hypocrites, after all
I would consider it fantastic if the kind of discussion we are having now is openly encouraged and even instigated by Camp Quest volunteers.

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 12 of 31 (517997)
08-03-2009 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
08-02-2009 10:52 AM


Send Me
Well, not now. Several years ago I would so much have enjoyed the reprieve that Atheist Camp would have afforded me from the religious bullying I have had to deal with at camp.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 13 of 31 (518004)
08-03-2009 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Modulous
08-03-2009 4:51 PM


Re: Indoctrination
But teaching kids to be nice to each other, cooperate etc etc, and doing so with a referencing saints, God as inspiration is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned (I did that in Scouts). So I don't see why we should get nervous about largely the same thing happening with a more secular view...with alternative view points being represented too.
I see nothing wrong with this either. It is more the unspoken, very probably resisted but nevertheless present "united under atheism" aspect of the whole thing that I find uncomfortable. Purposefully seeking out exposure to single issue groupings for kids as young as seven just seems too much like foisting ones own opinions down the throats of kids. Even if the stated aim of the grouping is to question such opinions.
Obviously there is a line, but if we start treating kids as delicate snowflakes who cannot be exposed to one viewpoint without balancing it perfectly with others...we aren't doing them any favours.
Oh I don't think kids are delicate and it's not about balance as such.... Again it's the intentional, explicit and purposeful advocacy of any well defined mindset targetted specifically at kids that I find uncomfortable. Maybe kids as young as seven should just be left to be a bit irrational? Maybe this is the best way to discover the world for oneself at that age? Maybe this is a necessary part of the process of eventually working out for oneself what is rational and what is not? I would be less opposed if the age grouping of these camps were 14-19 or something similar. Youngsters who actually have had the opportunity to form defined views to be challenged and who are prepared to challenge the defined views of others.
I would consider it fantastic if the kind of discussion we are having now is openly encouraged and even instigated by Camp Quest volunteers.
Aye. I would too. Maybe we should volunteer and ensure that it is....? Task on day 1 of camp - "Why is the very concept of Camp Quest a danger to it's own aims"?
Discuss.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 14 of 31 (518006)
08-03-2009 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by lyx2no
08-03-2009 4:56 PM


Re: Send Me
Well, not now. Several years ago I would so much have enjoyed the reprieve that Atheist Camp would have afforded me from the religious bullying I have had to deal with at camp.
Frankly such "camps" are a whole lot less common over here than they are in the US. So I understand anyway. As such I have never been on one and am talkiing from a point of almost complete ignorance about the whole experience under discussion.
What were the camps you went to like? Were there aspects of overtly religious indoctrination? How do you think "atheist camp" would treat a kid who was overtly religious? Would it be different to your, presumably opposite, experience?

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 15 of 31 (518048)
08-03-2009 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Straggler
08-03-2009 5:46 PM


The Love of Jesus Feels a Lot Like a Wedgie
As you my know my mum is practicing Catholic, and though we're a bit short on Catholic summer camps there is no shortage of religious summer camps, and these were the camp of my experience. What I've gotten from this it seems a fair bet that most of those kids were born again on the if-at-first-you-don't-succeed theory. One would have to be an ox to not be able to count the number of normal kids on one hand. What isn't known about fretful Rod and Todd Flanders is that give the power they'll have Bart, Lisa and Maggie burnt at the stake before the day is out.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

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