Divinity of Jesus

its good to know that to follow Christ means to believe in a doctrine introduced 3 hundred years after his death...i'll keep working on it but i dont like my chances.

There was a countroversy on this subject 300 years after Christ, but the idea that Jesus was God was NOT the new kid on the block, it was the contrary. The idea that Jesus wasn't God was, it came with the rise of gnosticismEdited by slevesque, : No reason given.

Is it fair to use a poem by way of evidence when stating such a serious claim?

yes, true, however Gnostiscm came from non christian sources. The babylonian gnostics attributed hidden meanings to Bible numbers for instance...they introduced non scriptural teachings after their conversion to christianity. The apostles pre-warned about this.Paul wrote to Timothy in 1Timothy 6:20"O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called "knowledge." 21For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith." Pauls words here show that false ideas were creeping into the church from very early on. John also wrote about false teachers at 2 Peter 2:1,3
"...there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects...Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words."If Paul and John are referring to the gnostic teachings, then there is no reason to assume that the gnostics had anything accurate to teach. If the idea of the trinity came about as a result of the gnostics, then the idea must be false.Even some in the catholic church admit the non christian teachings...Roman Catholic cardinal John Henry Newman, Essays and Sketches:

quote:

---

"The phenomenon, admitted on all hands, is this:That great portion of what is generally received as Christian truth is, in its rudiments or in its separate parts, to be found in heathen philosophies and religions. For instance, the doctrine of a Trinity is found both in the East and in the West; so is the ceremony of washing; so is the rite of sacrifice. The doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian."

---

I think this quote speaks for itself.

Can you point out who these people were? I mean give some sort of first hand historical account. Oh and please any documentation or evidence to back this up.

---

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Again I ask. Do you have anything to back up these statements? Other than faith of course.

---

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I would consider the advent of gnosticism in the early churchas pretty much common knowledge for whoever is a bit familiar with the history of christianity.The very first who had Gnostic tendencies where Simon Magnus and Marcion of Sinope. Cerinthus also. One of the main distinction between Gnostic teachings and christian was that they were saying that Jesus was not God, that he did not rise from the dead, some still put him as some sort of divine figure (as Peg does), others said he was just another prophet of Love (as the current New Age movement does)This sort of teachings is absent from every document that relates to the eye-witness generation, the great majority of course being the books in the NT. (I'm not considering obviously Paul as eye-witness)

Do you have any idea when these guys date from? Source
The gnostics or protognostics were there early in the church. To say they developed 300 years after is not true. You keep talking about eyewitnesses. What is this eyewitness testimony? The NT? You do realize that all of the gospels are dated quite well after the supposed crucifixion of this Jesus. If you are going to claim eyewitness, provide some evidence.

---

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

The fact that you consider "In Christ Alone" just a poem tells me volumes about what you believe concerning the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I pray one day you and others at this forum might know the truth of the Bible that this song proclaims.Blessings

Was a God formed before or after Jehovah ? That is the only question of real importance."Before Me there was no God formed, neither will there be any after Me." (Isaiah 43:10)If you wish it said something else, you should deal with that matter seriously in prayer to God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Peg,Jehovah is the mighty God:Psalm 89:8 - O Jehovah God of hosts, who is like You, the mighty Jah ? The human child born shall be called "Mighty God"."For a child is born to us ... And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father ..." (Isaiah 9:6)My God is the man Jesus Christ.

what is the definition of God?

Peg, whatever the definition of God, none other was formed before God and none other was formed after God. He is "Wonderful" (Isaiah 9:6). Why do you ask me of the definition of God?He is full of wonder. Praise Him. And besides Him there is no God (Isaiah 45:5). There are not two more besides Him. Neither is there one more besides Him. If there were another God as Russell wants you to believe, surely God Almighty would know about it. But He says He knows of no other God:"And you are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Or is there any [other] Rock ? I do not know of [any]. (Isa. 44:8)So if we truly intend to be "Jehovah's witnesses" then we must agree with Him that there is no other God/god and there is no other Rock of our faith. How can you be Jehovah's witness if you say there is another god besides Him ?And in the New Testament this God incarnate in the Son said that the believers would be His witnesses:"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8).And we see that in the books of Acts Christ had come into the disciples to give them divine life. And they were commanded to speak all the words of this life:"But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the prison, and leading them out, said, Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life." (Acts 5:19,20)We have to receive God in Christ as our new life, the eternal life to be enjoyed today, and to be fully manifested in the future.Russell's disciples are speaking a lot of words about the objective data about his version of polytheism. They are not speaking about the Christ they have received because they only have an objective Michael as Christ, erroneously. They do not receive Christ as life and do not speak of the subjective truths of this life.Now I said I was going to demonstrate to you that God sent God in the Old Testament. Examine Zechariah 2:8-11. In verse 8 the speaker is Jehovah of hosts - "For thus says Jehovah of hosts... But He has been sent to the nations by Jehovah of hosts the very same speaker. Whoever touches the people of Jehovah, both the Sender and the One sent, touches the pupil of His eye."After the glory He has sent me against the nations who plunder you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye." In verse 9 the speaker is still Jehovah of hosts. Yet at the end of the verse Jehovah of hosts says "and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me."This is Jehovah the Sender and Jehovah the One being sent. He is also the one who will dwell in the midst in verse 10:" ... for now I am coing and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah." But in verse 11 when many nations are joined to this one, to become His people Israel shall know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Him ! This too is God sending God. This is God being sent by God." And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people; and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.11) This passage of Zechariah 2:8-11 is a marvelous window into the mysterious nature of the Triune God. God sends God. God is sent by God. And they shall know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Jehovah.It is a passage like this in the Old Testament that sheds further light on the words of Jesus. For example He is sending the Spirit of reality but that Spirit is just Himself coming to them (John 14:17,18)It also sheds light on Christ and His Father coming as the Divine "WE" to make an abode with His lover (John 14:23).When I was first shown this I spent time going through the entire book of Zechariah to make sure that it is not the prophet speaking that Jehovah has sent him. I decided that it could not be the case and that chapter 2:8-11 is about God sending God revealing something at least of His triune nature.So to receive Jesus into our hearts is to receive God, garuanteed.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You didn't answer her question.Why don't you just answer? Maybe with a nice succinct response. You can quote all the bible passages you want but you are not answering the question. By the way no one is impressed.So how about an answer?What is the definition of God?

---

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

That's a hard question.Maybe this will help "One for Whom a greater cannot be thought."