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Syamsu's Objection to Natural Selection...

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Author Topic:   Syamsu's Objection to Natural Selection...
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 151 of 343 (46725)
07-21-2003 3:24 PM 		Reply to: Message 149 by Syamsu
07-21-2003 2:58 PM

Syamsu,
​
So you see it's not a question of abuse, people are free to derive morality from science if they wish
​
Sure, it doesn't make it right, & it isn't sciences fault that people derive morality from a device that simply seeks to provide explanations. It is an inappropriate extension of science to do so.
​
Do you think it's right that Hitler should exterminate a race on the basis of NS? If not, then you agree with me, non? Like I say, an inapropriate extension, & as Schraf points out, people generally just jump on the bandwagon to support ideas they already possess so they can claim their ideas are scientifically supported.
​
Mark
​
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Syamsu, posted 07-21-2003 2:58 PM Syamsu has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Syamsu, posted 07-22-2003 4:31 AM mark24 has not replied
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 248 of 343 (48332)
08-01-2003 12:44 PM 		Reply to: Message 246 by Syamsu
08-01-2003 12:33 PM

Syamsu,
​
Please respond to this.
​
Mark
​
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
​
[This message has been edited by mark24, 08-01-2003]
This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Syamsu, posted 08-01-2003 12:33 PM Syamsu has not replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 08-01-2003 2:59 PM mark24 has not replied
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 284 of 343 (48766)
08-05-2003 9:00 AM 		Reply to: Message 277 by Syamsu
08-05-2003 5:59 AM

Syamsu,
​
Please answer the question posed in this post. Why the reluctance? You seem so confident in your assertions, this should be a breeze.
​
Mark
​
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Syamsu, posted 08-05-2003 5:59 AM Syamsu has not replied
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 298 of 343 (49622)
08-09-2003 1:37 PM 		Reply to: Message 297 by Syamsu
08-09-2003 12:57 PM

Syamsu,
​
Please answer the question posed in this post. Why the reluctance? You seem so confident in your assertions, this should be a breeze.
​
I believe forum guidelines pretty much demand a response.
​
Mark
​
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
​
[This message has been edited by mark24, 08-09-2003]
This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Syamsu, posted 08-09-2003 12:57 PM Syamsu has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Syamsu, posted 08-09-2003 2:29 PM mark24 has replied
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 300 of 343 (49653)
08-09-2003 3:31 PM 		Reply to: Message 299 by Syamsu
08-09-2003 2:29 PM

Syamsu,
​
I have basically answered that question before in the same thread, you just changed the players/organisms.
​
No, you didn't answer the question, they were subtly different (& you never answered them, either). The dog question was about which individuals were relatively fitter, the guppy question challenged you to explain colouration changes in a population without effectively mentioning relative fitness.
​
You were asked to explain:
​
"The guppy, Poecilia reticulata. In waters populated by the predator Crenicichla, males have smaller less conspicuous spots that match the gravel bottom (different bottoms elicit different patterns). In effect the guppy has evolved camouflage. The alleles that express phenotypes are under SELECTIVE pressure.
Guppies that exist in waters that lack Crenicichla display a much wider range of colouration. That is to say the alleles that affect skin colour are no longer under selective pressure.
​
Guppy populations that are in waters that have Crenicichla populations, & are placed in waters without the predator soon display a wider variety of colouration. Again, the skin colouration alleles aren't selectively constrained, & are able to increase via genetic drift, since they are now "neutral" alleles.
​
If guppies from non-predatorial waters are placed in water with Crenicichla, the colourations soon begin to match the gravel bottom. That is, alleles responsible for skin colouration are under selective pressure.
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So tell me how a guppy population taken from non-Crenicichla infested water ended up with camouflage when they didn't before, without effectively mentioning variation & relative fitness.
​
(Endler 1980)
​
Let me make it clearer for you, you claim to have "basically" answered the question. The question was to explain the colouration changes in the guppy population. You didn't do this, you therefore haven't answered the question, "basically", or otherwise.
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I don't care what definitions you use, I just want to know what is happening to allele frequencies over generations that allow all members of a population to be camouflaged when they previously weren't. In fact, don't use the word fitness at all, just describe what's going on & why. That way there is no confusion over definitions.
​
Mark
​
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Syamsu, posted 08-09-2003 2:29 PM Syamsu has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Syamsu, posted 08-18-2003 12:24 PM mark24 has replied
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 313 of 343 (50107)
08-12-2003 8:20 AM 		Reply to: Message 304 by Syamsu
08-11-2003 5:02 AM

Syamsu,
​
Please address message 300.
​
Mark
​
------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Syamsu, posted 08-11-2003 5:02 AM Syamsu has not replied
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 326 of 343 (50850)
08-18-2003 11:50 AM 		Reply to: Message 322 by Syamsu
08-18-2003 9:49 AM

Syamsu,
​
Please address message 300.
​
Mark
​
------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Syamsu, posted 08-18-2003 9:49 AM Syamsu has not replied
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 329 of 343 (50881)
08-18-2003 2:44 PM 		Reply to: Message 328 by Syamsu
08-18-2003 12:24 PM

Syamsu,
​
I think the point here is to say that camouflage contributes to reproduction (a positive selective factor), and that those with camouflage diminish the chance of reproduction of those that don't have camouflage (a negative selective factor).
​
How do the camouflaged individuals diminish the chances of the non-camouflaged individuals ability to reproduce? The only factor that has changed is the presence of the predator. Surely it is this that is applying the selective pressure, not other members of the same species?
​
Mark
​
------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Syamsu, posted 08-18-2003 12:24 PM Syamsu has not replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Percy, posted 08-18-2003 3:24 PM mark24 has replied
mark24
Member (Idle past 5226 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 331 of 343 (50910)
08-18-2003 6:12 PM 		Reply to: Message 330 by Percy
08-18-2003 3:24 PM

Percy (& Syamsu),
​
I gotta say that I side with Syamsu on this one.
​
Recant while there's still time!
​
You're right, of course, so I'll rephrase.
​
Syamsu writes:
​
camouflage contributes to reproduction (a positive selective factor), and that those with camouflage diminish the chance of reproduction of those that don't have camouflage (a negative selective factor).
​
Syamsu,
​
So you would agree that the environment is imposing differential reproductive success within the guppy population, then? It seems difficult to avoid, given you have admitted that the population in it's entirety has two sub-populations that are affecting each others reproductive chances.
​
This process requires two things, variation, & differential fitness values within the population in question.
​
Mark
​
------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Percy, posted 08-18-2003 3:24 PM Percy has not replied
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