Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

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The bottom line is that the prophecy is against:

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1. The latter day nation claiming their own land and Israel and in particular, the Holy places of Israel, i.e. Jerusalem.

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Ezekiel 35 doesn't say that it is against a latter day nation. It DOES say that it is against ancient Edom.

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2. The land of Edom and the Palestinians are obviously the ones who come the closest for fulfillment. The prophecy has partially been fulfilled in that the ancient land of Edom is a wasteland and that there is indeed a bordering people claiming ownership of Israel.

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Ancient Edom is clearly meant. If you want to argue for fulfilment you would do better to point out that there are no identifiable Edomites today. That people has vanished from history

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3. Of course we have the other corroborating evidence such as the phenomenal return and rebirth of the nation of Israel etc.

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Anyone who tries to deny fulfillment of prophecy here simply doesn't want to admit the truth.

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The TRUTH is that Ezekiel 35 is about ancient Edom. You have produced no evidence to draw any significant connection with the Palestinians and you have steadfastly ignored all inconvenient evidence - even going so far to assert that Gaza is "far" from the location of ancient Philistia ! You're a long way from the truth, Buz.

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This whole prophecy beginning with chapter 34 through 39 is a sequence of the events relative to the restoration of the messianic kingdom prophesied by numerous prophets, both OT and NT.

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So you assert. Of course if you are right it most likely means another failed prediction.

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1. See 34:23,24. Jehovah declares that the messiah, his servant, David will feed the restored Israel and feed them. It is repeated in 37:24 he says, "And David my servant shall be king over them and they all shall have one shepherd." CLEARLY MESSIANIC

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Ezekiel 34 has no clear connection to Ezekiel 35. Nor does Ezekiel 37.

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2. Then go to 38:8 we read, "...in the latter years you shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword and is gathered out of many people...."

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And the significance of this is ?

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3. 38:11 In the day of unwalled villages. Modern Israel is rife with them. Not so in ancient days.

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In Ezkiel 38:11 the land that has known peace for a long time and is unprepared for war, and the unwalled villages are a sign of that. As such it is more fitting for times when villages would be walled for defence. Not for modern times where walls are no longer so important for warfare.No military general of modern times would regard unwalled villages as a sign of weakness as "Gog" does in Ezekiel 38.

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Anyone who can't see this as a prophecy of the end times of the Gentile age is either willfully ignoring the facts or too stubborn to admit the obvious.

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By which you mean that anybody who knows better must be slandered

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PaulK writes:

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Ancient Edom is clearly meant. If you want to argue for fulfillment you would do better to point out that there are no identifiable Edomites today. That people has vanished from history

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Edom is a desolation and any remnant descendents of them are the ones nearest to Edom who are claiming in these latter days two nations and Israels holy mountain exactly as prophesied.

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If Edom is a desolation then the prophecy has ALREADY been fulfilled and you are wrong.
You have produced no evidence that the Palestinians can be specifically identified as Edomites specifically. And your "prophecy" is a statement about the past.

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Yah sure, no evidence.. You wouldn't admit evidence to anything Biblical to save your soul. I pray the scales will fall off your eyeballs.

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Like I said you have produced no evidence of significance. Your two main lines of argument that the Palestinians are Edomites both fail. Your geographical argument is simply and obviously wrong. Your "prophetic" argument relies on an invented prophecy (and the assumption that if Buzsaw hasn't heard of something, God couldn't know of it either).And cut out the false accusations. They don't change the facts.

The Question:Can the Palestinians be identified specifically as Edomites to the extent that we can say that a prophecy directed against the Edomites is actually directed at the Palestinians ?The Problem:The last reference to the Edomites as a people - then called Idumaeans - has them sending a substantial force to support the Jews, in the Jewish Revolt of the 1st Century AD. After that, they vanish from history. We may infer that the defeat of the Revolt and the inevitable Roman reprisals at least partly explain their disappearance.Also, it must be noted that the reason the Idumaeans supported the Jews is that they had been converted to Judaism some time earlier. It is entirely possible, even likely, that the surviving Idumaeans were absorbed into the Jewish community (which, itself, suffered in consequence of the failed revolt).The supposed evidence:Geography:Edom is supposedly the "closest" kingdom to the current Palestinian territories. Even if this were true it would be insufficient to overcome the problems noted above. But it is not true. The wikipedia page on Palestine contains maps showing both the modern Palestinian territories and the ancient kingdosm of the region.This shows that:1) The Gaza strip is a portion of Philistia, the only part of Palestinian territory outside of ancient Israel or Judah.2) On a closest-point to closest-point basis Aram-Damascus appears to come closest to the West Bank, in the north. Ammon and Moab both appear to come closer than Edom, although Moab is seperated by the Dead Sea.Prophecy:35:10 is claimed to be a prediction that somehow refers to the Palestinians. However, if the Palestinians cannot be identified as Edomites it does not matter even if this minor detail fits - it is hardly something that uniquely identifies a people. Even worse there is no reason to suppose that it is any sort of prediction. It is given as something that HAD BEEN DONE to justify the predicted punishment. I have checked a good number of translations and not one translates Ezekiel 35:10 as referring to a future claim, rather than one which was past or current at the time of writing.We are left then with good historical reasons to deny the claim that the Palestinians are specifically Edomite, and nothing of significance to suggest that they are.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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PaulK, since you and others are having such a problem connecting the dots I'll help you all out with the hard empirical evidence.

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By which you mean that you are going to produce a bunch of partial quotes and put parts in bold.

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This phenomenal sequence of events in this prophecy is all connected to the prophesied end time messianic assembling of the nation of Israel to their own land where the messianic descendant of David will be their king/prince and dwell with them in this land.

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Then you need to show something in Ezekiel 35 that clearly relates to that.

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The enemies of this messianic nation are all in place as prophesied after the land has bloomed. All that's left is the eventual invasion of the enemies surrounding Israel and others allied with them, all of whom presently wish for the fall of Israel. Then comes the prophesied advent of Messiah Jesus and Armageddon.

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Given your apparent ignorance of the relevant geography you're in no position to make such a claim. Especially relevant to Chapter 35 is the fact that there aren't any Edomites as such and even the people you call Edomites aren't in Edom.Now if your quotes from Chapter 35 are not clearly messianic your assertion of having produced "hard evidence" is false. Here it is: The only thing you've bolded seems to be a standard formula for Ezekiel, indicating that the fulfilment is to be taken as a demonstration of God's power. Looking at the English translations we can find much the same phrase in other books, including 1 Kings (20:13). Are you going to say that THAT verse is Messianic now ? Ezekiel uses it frequently - e.g. in Ezekiel 6 and Ezekiel 12 where again it is connected to the fulfilment of prophecies and NOT to a specific time. It appears in Ezekiel 30:19 as part of the (failed) prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar will devastate Egypt. Are you going to say that that is a Messianic prophecy referring to modern times ?The rest is all about Edom, a kingdom that ceased to exist long ago, it's people lost to history. Which is a rather clear indication that it is NOT about modern times as you claim, but about a time when there was at least an identifiable Edomite people. Something that has not been the case for around 1900 years.All you've proved is that YOU can't find a clear connection of Ezekiel 35 to 34 or 37 either. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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have provided hard empirical evidence that PaulK's statement is false in that he is trying to claim that these chapters are not relative to one another. That they have no connection one to another is a false statement. My message proved that these chapters are indeed related one to another concerning the regathering of the nation of Israel for a messianic kingdom.

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As everyone can see that is a complete falsehood. You provided zero evidence that Ezekiel 35 is messianic. And, as has already been shown there is no likelihood of its being meaningfully fulfilled now or in the future.

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PaulK, you are being so ridiculous that it's hardly worth my time.

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Yawn. You've got no evidence. You know it, I know it. Everyone knows it.

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It's nuts to argue that 35 is not relevant to this prophecy

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Since you can't find the connection, it seems to be quite sane.

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I've stated repeatedly that Edom has already been partially fulfilled in that the land is desolate but it's relevancy applies to this prophecy in that all of Israel's enemies will be punished by Jehovah sooner or later, including whoever the descendents of Edom are.

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Then I guess He does mean to have a go at the Israelis then.

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The Middle Eastern ancient nations all have descendents in this area and Edom is no exception

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The prophecies are against nations. Not against the distant descendants of people in those nations who have lost all touch with that heritage. And God would have to be a sick and twisted individual to take "vengeance" in those circumstances. Certainly there's no justice in it.

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Not only that, but here we have the very nations which were prophesied in place poised to destroy Israel and wipe them off the map and you can't even see that. How intellectually blind can you be?

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He can't see it because it isn't true.

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To top it off, the prophecy will be fulfilled in a time when walls are not a factor in defense of the cities.

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No, it claims that walls WILL be a significant factor in defense. The ABSENCE of walls is taken as a sign of weakness and vulnerability. Which can only be the case if defensive walls are the norm.

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Plus we have so many other end time corroborating prophecies either being fulfilled or which have been fulfilled; things like global government powers over all nations. Obama is all for that one with high ambitions for global authority. I've cited prophesied one world monetary system of marks and numbers, unthought of in ancient days as globally imposed upon all nations, tribes and tongues.

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I don't see any sign that Obama wants more global authority than Bush.
As for the rest the fact that your misrepresentations of the current situation match your misrepresentations of the Bible hardly prove that prophecy is being fulfilled !

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Add to the above the prophesied ability of all nations viewing one event in one spot on the planet. I've cited all of these and you and about every one else here who claim to be educated intellectuals still dogmatically deny the evidence I've cited. What else can I say?

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Because we've shown that you've misrepresented the Bible there, too.What else can we say ? Your "prophecy" fulfilments rely on cherry-picking the bits that suit you - and usually twisting even those. So of course we don't agree. No honest person could.

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How so? Please explain.

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Other than the geography in what way IS it true ? In what way is Ethiopia a major threat to Israel ?

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But the prophet likely had no concept of not needing walls for defense. The important point is that walls were the norm for ancient days. Ezekiel knew the cities had walls when he wrote the prophecy. He assumed they would be needed forever, evidently. But he forsees a time when there would be no walls or that cities would be expanded beyond the ancient walls. That is what makes the prophecy way out in the future for fulfillment. The fulfillment would not come until the latter days when walls would not be in place for the purpose of defense.

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But there is no description of the lack of walls as a generally being true. It is supposedly special enough to be remarked on- by the people of the future time. And in the present day it isn't - its the norm.

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What? Don't you remember Obama's global sweep campaigning overseas during the campaign. Are you aware that he says he wants to redistribute America's wealth globally via the UN? Obama is a self avowed globalist big time. His ambitions are global, even more so than nationally. Watch and see if I'm not right on this.

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In the sense of wanting a global government ? Not likely. That's a pipe dream. There's no chance of it happening in the forseeable future. Engaging with other nations on a diplomatic and economic level is a long way from setting up a world state.

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What? Who cherry picks? Coyote, you and others when it comes to the prophecies.

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No. It is quite definitely and clearly you.You want to leave out Daniel 8:21-23 because they clearly place Daniel's End Times in the Hellenistic period.You want to take Luke's prophecy of a return from Exile out of context so you can ignore the fact that Luke's version of the Olivet discourse places the exile itself after the Tribulation (Luke 21:20-24). And the fact that the fulfillment of the entire prophecy is to occur within the time of a generation (Luke 21:32). And just forget about comparing it with the versions in Matthew and Mark !That is real cherry-picking. You won't find me doing that.

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I've corroborated many prophecies.

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I think the word you are looking for is "misrepresented". That would make your statement actually true. [/quote] The focus on this thread is not on a verse or two. It's on four long chapters, all of which are sequenced from the prophecy concerning the enemies, prophecy of the land/hills and valleys, prophecy of the return of the people, prophecy of the invasion/Armageddon and finally the prophecy of the destruction of the invading nations. Furthermore, all of this is corroborated by other prophets like Zechariah and Isaiah, etc. [/quote]But you ignore parts of those chapters that you do not like. For instance you ignore the fact that Ezekiel 35:5 states that the Edomites are to be punished for things that they have already done at the time the prophecy is written. You attribute the words describing ancient weaponry to the prophet when the text says that the words come directly from God (Ezekiel 38:1-4 for just one example). That's cherry-picking

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The Jerusalem Post says best why Ethiopia is listed among the enemies of Israel slated for the fulfillment of this prophecy. Most of North Africa will likely align with Russia and the Mid East Islamic pac for UN dominancy and for this prophesied Armageddon event.

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Except the Jerusalem Post doesn't say any of that, according to your quote. What it says is that communism in Ethiopia has inadvertently helped the rise of Islamism in that nation.So you have zero evidence that Ethiopia is a significant threat to Israel. My point is proved.

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I was reading the prophet Zechariah for my daily Bible reading this AM. I came across this from Zechariah 2:3-5 which corroborates Ezekiel relative to the unwalled villages and clarifies this controversy.

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More cherry picking. If you read the start of the prophecy in Zechariah 1 you will see that it refers to return from the Babylonian exile (1:12-16)

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You just watch, Paul and see how global Obama takes us. It's a matter of time (sooner than we hope) that the planet will be subject to oppressive global mandates.

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I don't need to watch, it's obvious that you are indulging in your hate-fuelled fantasies again

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Paul, relative to the cherry picking, you're so irrational that further response is useless.

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As you know everything I said was true. That is why you don't even attempt to refute it - or support your own false accusation.