Checking for validity of supposed early christian gay marriage rite

Guys, um, i hate to be the party pooper but isn't this getting a tad off topic? The subject in question is whether there where ancient christian rites of gay marraige or not (which according to the main article posted, seems not to have been authenticated yet), not whether gay marraige is constitutional or not (a good subject for another thread).BTW: Whether or not this line of questioning is wrong or okay for this thread, Why argue whether gay marraige is constitutional or not? Your arguing over a document that was written in a time when such a thing as gay marraige was either unthinkable, laughable, dangerous or all three combined; of course the founding fathers would not have accepted gay marraige. It has been said that George Washington kicked a guy out of his army for being gay. And consistency? The constitution talked about freedom yet slaves were still kept by the likes of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. How could one interpret a document like the constitution without acknowledging its historical/cultural/social setting?Dont get me wrong; we have made good progress since it was written (Freedom from slavery, the right for Blacks and women to vote, etc), but it seems kinda wierd to interpret an old document like the constitution while ignoring its historical background.I would love to hear both liberals and conservatives answer that question.Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Taz.Considering the replies and posts on this thread, combined with the teachings of the Bible and orthodox Christianity, i remain highly skeptical of the above claims. Just look at these tidbits from the early Church Fathers;"It is well that they should be cut off from the lusts of the world, since "Every lust wars against the spirit" and "neither fornicators, nor Homosexuals...Will inherit the kingdom of God."
Clement of Rome"Some polluted themselves by lying with males."
Aristides"You shall not commit adultrey; you shall not commit pederasty."
Didache"The Greeks, oh king, follow debased practices in intecourse with males, or with mothers, sisters and daughters. Yet they, in turn, impute their monstrous impurity to the Christians."
Aristides"they do not abstain even from males, males with males committing shocking abominations, outraging all the noblest and comeleist bodies in all sorts of ways."
Athenagoras"The Christian man confines himself to the female sex."
Tertullian"The coupling of two males is a shameful thing."
Tertullian"The whole earth has now become full of forniction and wickedness. I admire the ancient legislators of the Romans. These men detesed effeminacy of conduct. The giving of the body to feminine purposes, contrary to the law of nature, they judged worthy of the most extreme penalty."
Clement of Alexandria"Pederasty is condemned by the bararians. However, by the Romans it is honored with certain privledges. In fact, they try to collect herds of boys like grazing horses."
TatianThe ancient Church fathers viewed pederasty in the same league, though as the above statements mak clear, sex between two males period was abominable. For these sayings and others on pederasty see the book "A Dictionary of early Christian beliefs" by David W. Bercot (editor).Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I wouldn't say that Christians actually hate homosexuals; I am a Christian who is against homosexuality, but i dont hate gays. I've haven't read all of Nemmy's posts but I doubt he hates them to. To say Christianity is a religion of hate towards gays is like saying that Islam is a religion of hate towards Poeple who drink grape-wine, Christians and Jews, or that Judaism is a religion of hate towards pork eating. I've never seen a video of a Mullah saying "God hats Winos" or a Jew with a sign saying "Pork eaters BE DAMNED!!"You wouldn't say that Islam and Judaism are religions of hate?Some Christians do hate gays (some church in Topeka, Kansas has been famous for picketing the funerals of people who died from AIDS. I condemn such actions), but to say that all Christians hate gays is like saying that all Christians hate Liars, Adulterers, murderers, Sabbath reakers, etc. Christians are more likely to hate pedophiles than gays.Its not that Christians hate homosexuals, its just that (at least the more Bible-based, lest "progressive" Christians), they are forbidden by God to accept any sin. Not that they would forbid gays to enter the Church, but they would not allow gays to become a member unless they repented and come/come back to Christ.I dont have much time to debate such a topic encompassing not just religion but ethics/Progress/the Modern ethic/ etc. But I may respond when i can.BTW: I like your new avatar, but i miss the old one.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Rrhain Exclaimes: and... Ahhhh, such a cute phrase. But what about for lying?"I dont hate you, I just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the joy of GOOD CONVERSATION."Or Theft?"I don't hate you, I just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the joy of GETTING WHAT YOU WANT."Or Murder?"I dont hate you, I just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the joy of HUNTING THE MOST DANGEROUS PREY."Or Adultery?"I dont hate you, I just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the JOY Of LOVE."Hmmm, sounds familiar...Or saying God's name in vain?"I dont hate you, i just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the joy of FREEDOM OF SPEECH."Or Idolatry?"I dont hate you, I just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the joy of ARTISTIC LICENSE."Or worshipping other gods?"I dont hate you, I just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the joy of FREEDOM OF RELIGION."What about the dangers of Lust?"I dont hate you, I just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the joy of SEXUAL LIBERATION."What about Fornication? Beastiality? Incest? Pedophilia? Pornography? Looking onto women to Lust after them (Inner adultery)?Stop me if you've heard this before..."I dont hate you, I just hate what you do and dont want you to ever experience the joy OF LOVE."Seems you can phrase things out of proportion/context and good taste just to try to make the other person seem "Less Progressive" and "Wrong".Rrhain also spews forth: To me its not, but to God (Biblical), it seems that he punishes all sin the same way. Whether you steal a peppermint candy from a store or blow up a city, any sin leads to you having a big fire around without the marshmellows to roast for eternity. Interesting analogy. Do all gay people "look alike" to you?Rrhain also spits out upon thy hapless populace of Cyberspace: Im sorry, I wanted to ask this in the last section of this post, but, isn't the phrase supposed to be "African American" unless different continent/land of ethnic origin is otherwise?And do you think there are a "race" of Gay people? What continent did they come from? What religion, culture, history? Did they come from the south pole? How do they fit in the evolutionary history of man (are they part of HOMO SAPIENS SAPIENS or are they a side branch of Modern Humans, a subspecies? Did they come from (gasp!), HOMO ERECTUS???!!BTW: Where in the Bible/Quran/Book of Shadows/Book of Mormon/Egyptian Book of the Dead/Necronomicon/Torah/Dianetics/Hesiod is it stated that being Black is a sin?Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Catholic Scientist I thought trolling was different from what Rrhain wrote. What is all entailed by "Trolling"?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Rrhain ejaculates to thee; Me, no. God, however, IS Someone to tell you what those things are and how to live, that is if you believe in the Biblical God. My bad on not explaining well; HOMOSEXUALITY, i.e. HOMOSEXUAL ACTS (ie having sex with someone of same gender) is on par with the sins mentioned:Thou shalt not murder, steal, Lie, Worship other gods, commit idolatry, break the sabbath, covet thy neighbor's belongings and wife(s), adultery, take God's name in vain, dishonor your parents (Exodus 20:1-17)Dont have sex with close family members (incest), dont have sex with animals, and dont have man on man sex (Leviticus 18:1-30). Notice 18:22, one which you no doubt have either refused to accept and have tried to xplain away or ignore;""You shall not lie with a male as a woman; it is a abomination."The NCV hits it harder between the eyes;"It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man."And if you break one commandment, you break them all (James 2:10-11). Oh yes, and the earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, Jews have horns (Moses no different!!), we are at the center of the universe, and Rats can magically be spawned out of non-living matter. If you take what you just wrote seriously, you are to Biblical scholarship what Ken Ham is to science. Trying to ignore or explain away the text shows that you dont take the text for what it says. If you feel the way you wrote, you should also make the same claim for Beastiality, incest and fornication, among other sins. If you were a real Bible scholar, you wouldn't read 21rst century fairy apologetics into a text written in a totally different setting and culture. Even Taz agrees that the text is talking about man on man sex. If you persue this line of junk, I will not respond to it, but pity you. Dont waste my time or that of others. I asked first. SEMANTICS IS EVERYTHING, my buddy! In order to be a legit progressive (a real progressive) you have to be in the movement 100%! No room for mavericks! Fight the system, man! Prisoner of the system! PRISONERS OF THE SYSTEM UNITE!!!!!!!!!!!BTW: The Bible mentions nothing about "Darker skined Homo Sappiens/Melanistically gifted" needing to repent of their blackness, so no they dont have to repent. I didn't say that; but if there is a "race" of gay people, they should at least have some different cultural/religious characteristics from other "races" of people; People from Africa differ from each other in religious followings, and largely do so with people from, say, South America. Perhaps a Shoggoth could assume human shape on the coldest continent... You broke a cardinal rule; To be progressive, you dont attack any religion unless that religion is Evangelical christianity!!!! How can you be a good follower of Michael Moore if you dont get this right? Don't bother Obama with your convervative vote! It would be anathema to true leftists!!!!!

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Neiter does it say anything about incest, Beastiality (these two you ignored in your statement), Blaspheming the Holy Spirit (arguably the worst of the worst; you can get forgiven for it. But like any other, the result is the same; Damnation. See Matthew 12:22-32), Animal cruety (Proverbs 12:10) sorcery, fortune telling, divititation, Omen interpreting, Wizardry, and Nercomancy (last six in Deuteronomy 18:9-14).Why be against incest and Beastiality yet totally for homosexuality, when the text goes against them all?And do you believe that animal cruelty and magical arts are also "okay" and "Not on par with" the things mentioned in the ten commandments, and therefore...okay?And just because it is not in the "same book", means that it is not as bad as those sins found in that book? Its all part of the TORAH, the five books attributed to MOSES, i.e. the PENTATEUCH/LAW. If you break one part of the law (ie Moral Law (see the whole book of Galatians, Matthew 5:17-20, 22:34-40, Mark 7:14-23, Acts chapter 15, Romans 13:8-14), you break ALL of it (James 2:10-12). "It means its REALLY okaeedokee, that you know more than God who wrote it, That HOW DARE HE (GOD) GO AGAINST SOMETHING SO FUN AND FABULOUS, that you can just edit it out of the Bible (the "YOU EDIT BIBLE!" from MAD Magazine; also comes in Quran and Dianetics!!!!!) and that you should have the bestest fun WITH IT!"-Stupid White Men interpreting the BibleYou dont have to "cite an authority" to understand the text. Use someting called "Common Sense". If God says "dont do it" and calls it an "Abomination" or "Disgusting", it usually means that it is BAD, i.e. not something you can cherry pick and do as you damn well please.That is, unless you worship your Sexual urges instead of God. Then by all means... And ignorance.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Goes by many names; Yahweh, Jehovah (not an accurate term, but still used), I AM THAT I AM, etc. What a bunch of Fcking Bullshit! What part of "dont lie with a man as with a woman" can you not understand? Are you blind? Is someone reading these posts to you? are you having that person respond?? You've gotta be fluent in Doublespeak!! Tell that to Robert Alter, Professor of Hebrew at the University of California, Berkley, in his translation with commentary of the Torah ("The Five Books of Moses, a Translation with Commentary"), Page 623-24). Alterstates that the Hebrew is intended for both anal and intercrural homosexul intercourse, Having nothing to do with Ritual practice.Are you a professor of Hebrew, classical Old Testament Hebrew? Have you translated the Torah? Can you prove it? Then i'm going with the other guy. BullShit. It says nothing of the sort in the text, from beginning of the chapter to the end. The only Law mentioning anything with ritual is passing your seed o Molech, ie child sacrifice (Leviticus 18:21).
So murdering your child in a ritual is wrong, but murdering them without ritual is okay? And just because this law is linked to ritual, all of the laws in this chapter are linked to ritual? Hint: This was not the first commandment of the text.And if you say "Ritual" for homosexuality passage, why not everything else in the text? Incest or beastiality, or child killing?Here's a helpful tip: use your brain for something other than a hat rack. ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!No Temple is mentioned in the entire chapter, let alone the verse! P-L-E-A-S-E-!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, RRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYY? Mistranslation? Prove it.BTW: do we hav the original copies of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey? The Egyptian Book of the Dead? The works of Plato? If not, why not give such works and their translations the same sort of scrutiny? Why not attack "literal" translations of such works? Once again, prove it.Oh, and lets see what OTHER Bible translations say about that there passage, shall we?"You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination. (I Cor. 6:9, 10).Lev 18:22, Amplified Bible."You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."Lev 18:22, New American Standard Version, updated edition."Don't have sex with a man as one does with a woman. That is abhorrent."ibid, the Message Paraphrase (hardly a "literal reading" )"Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."lbid, TNIV"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."lbid, ESV"You are not to go to bed with a man as with a woman;it is an abomination."lbid, Complete Jewish Bible."You will not ave intercourse with a man as you would with a woman. This is a hateful thing."lbid, New Jerusalem Bible"Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence."lbid, NJPS"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination."lbid, New American Bible"And with a male you shall not lie as one lies with a woman. It is an abhorrence."lbid, Robert Alter's Pentateuch translationDo i have to go on, or are you just going to act the same way a creationist does; "I believe what I want to believe despite the evidence!" ah, the complete arrogance..."Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefoe i did away with them as you have seen."Ezekiel 16:49-50And what were those other "detestable" things? hint; the Hebrew word used here, translated as "Detestable" is the same word used to downgrade Homosexual acts in Leviticus 18:22 (see any concordance with word study and compare the verses.)Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.Edited by AdminModulous, : Removed ridiculously long string of exclamation marks that was affecting the page dispay.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

If you really believe that Homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible, that Leviticus 18:22 is about ritual prostitution (snicker), then here are some websites that, like you, will never agree with the evidence, not matter how strong;http://www.answersingenesis.orghttp://www.alaska.net/...e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htmhttp://www.KKK.comPage Not FoundPage Not FoundThere's some ocean front property in Arizona for you...Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Rrhain discharges excrement upon us once again: Spoken like a true Gnostic/Marcionite...Unless you are Jewish, then i have no beef with you on that; back and forth between two totally different religions leads to nothing. Doesn't the word "honesty" mean anything to you? Nothing at the beginning of the passage shows these laws to be ritual in nature. No Temple/Tanerbancle/religious place of worship setting is shown. Just as there is no ancient Hebrew word for Beastiality, yes. Then why so adamant that the text says nothing against Homosexual acts? You cant have it both ways. Be consistent. That is the most arrogant piece of writing you have ever written; You know that there are other branches of Judaism other than reform? Conservative, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, Messianic Judaism (the latter more of a hybrid than a branch, but stll considerable), etc. Why should we bow down to the dictates of Reform Judaism? The scriptures are just as much that of the other banches of Judaism as they are of your branch.You have proof that Moses and Abraham were Reform Jews? That "reform" Jews were the only type of Jews who wrote the scriptres? Ins't "reform Judaism" a far more recent phenomena? Hard to do, since the Hebrews didn't have a Temple but a Tabernacle at the time. But the peoples around them had Temples, i.e. places of worship like the Hebrews. Again, does "Honesty" mean anything to you? Does "Integrity" and "consistency" mean anything to you?Does "illiterate" mean anything to you? You mean "To'eba"?"detestable thing, loathsome thing, Abomination"("Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance, 2nd edition, page 1507" (See Hebrew word listed under number 9359 and compare with page 282 in regular Condordace section of the book). Well,if we wanted to go that far, we might as well assign all the Ten commandments to ritual, since it starts out with obvious ritual circumstances"You shall have no other gods before me.""You wont make idols or worship them."These two are both big time involved in ancient religious ritual (still have Polytheism and idol worship today)so now adultery, Murder, Lying, stealing, etc is not allowed in ritual practice, but otherwise is fine?I mean, especially with adultery; if two people have a loving relationship, why is it so wrong? Its gotta be linked to "ritual" adultery, ie "temple" prostitution!BTW: So if Homosexual acts and homosexuality as a whole, the way we "understand it", is not comdemned by the Bible, then you should say the same thing for Beastiality, which comes directly after the passage on "lying with a male as a female" (Leviticus 18:22). There is a reference to Homosexual acts."Before they had all gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house.They called out to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the doorbehind him and said "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Lok, I havetwo daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anyting to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
"Get out of our way," they replied. nd they said "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved foward to break down the door."Genesis 19:4-9Whatever motivation you can dream up as a defense, the fact that the men of Sodom wanted to man rape the male looking angels is self evident, and wrong. To say no Homosexual acts are involved is like saying no rape was involved. It seems you have more trouble understanding the Hebrew text than those who had no trouble translating the text to begin with (both Jewish and Cristian Translators). Perhaps you need to beef up your Hebrew a bit... Says you. Do you know what "Dynamic Equivalent" means? And you do know that homosexual acts, not Homosexualiy, are at the forefront of the debate here?? It probably was written at the third grade level so people who have trouble reading what the text is saying can understand it. Obviously it needed to go down an extra grade or more... And you seem to get your Bible interpretations from fantasy land.You could have a career as a lobbyist. After all, as one character in the movie "Thank you for Smoking" taught, you're never wrong when you argue well, NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING FOR.Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Sorry Taz. I guess we kinda got away with ourselves. It happens a lot on Evc debate forums. I'm surprised we haven't been asled by the head moderator to stifle it and get back to the original post.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

You have? How does anyone who doesn't know hebrew know for sure you are actually quoting the hebrew text, notsomething you've dreamed the text would say??? Again, you don't realize the context; the passage is on sexual sins, not ritual matters. Already gave number 1 to you. Here's another definition;"Hebrew Toeva-a term used of offenses deemed particularly heinous in God's sight, such as basphemy"
-Robert J. Hutchinson, "The Poliically Incorrect guide to the Bible", page 125And the term is used of ALL the sexual sins listed in Leviticus chapter 18;"But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the lad became defiled "
-Leviticus 18:26-27"Everyone who does any of these detestable things-such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God."
-Leviticus 18:29-30And for context sake; what were these "detestable" things??Incest
Child sacrifice
Beastiality
and...Homosexual sex. That is if your not blinded by your a priori political stance and love to ignore the truth. After all, people like you think they know better than God, so therefore...BTW: is the passage not talking about incest and beastiality as "we" understand it? "Child Sacrifice" as we understand it?? If not, would you want these things to be allowed outside ritual practices???And where pray tell is "Zimah" used for Murder in the scriptures? Is the same word used for Incest, beastiality, stealing, Lying, Idolatry, etc?? "With a male you shall not lie with a woman. The explicitness f this law-the Hebrew for "as one lies" is the plural construct noun mishkevei, "bedding", used exclusively for sexual intercourse-suggests that it is a ban on anal intercourse and intercrural intercourse (the latter often practiced by the Greeks). Other forms of homosexual activity do not seem of urgent concern. the evident rationale for the prohibition is the wasting of seed in what the Law appears to envisage as a kind of grotesque parody of heterosexual intercourse."
Robert Alter, "The Five Books of Moses; a Translation with Commentary"Seriously, Are you saying there were no gay people during the time Leviticus was written?? I'd love to hear you try and prove it. So by your definition, Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox are not "real" Jews?? They seem more "Jewish" than your ilk; they follow the Torah a hell of a lot better. You've never meet a Messianic Jew, have you? Just as you "Dont really Know" about the Torah, or context for that manner. Its all the Torah, and if you translate Leviticus 18:22 as reffering to ritual practice only, because of child sacrifice mentioned previous to it, then the whole of the Ten commandments should be reffered to ritual practice only, because it starts out with two major ritual practices; Monotheistic worship and idolatry.Actually it starts out with four; the third commandment (taking God's name in vain) originally didn't mean blasphemy like "GD it", but as a law against using God's name for magic ("The IVP Bible Background Commentary; Old Testament", by John W. Walton, Victor H. Matthews and Mark W. Chavalas (Professors of Old Testament and Hebrew, Religion, and History, respectively), page 95). And who can argue that the sabbath is not linked to ritual customs (that fourth Commandment?)So therefore, by your method of "interpretation", all the Laws of the Ten Commandments should be read in the light of ritual practice, not everyday life (I can murder him; I just have to do it without messing up Judaic Rituals!!!)And you forget Leviticus Chapter 20, which sets some harsh punishments for things like Sacrifcing your children to Molech (mentioned first! The key to interpreting the following laws now!!!!!!!) and Homosexual acts (verse 13) along with:Turning to sorcerers for help
cursing your parents (a bit of weavin g of Toeveh and Zimah in this chapter, eh? See Fifth Commandment, Exodus 20:12)
adultery
incest
Guys marrying both a Mother and her daughter
Beastiality
Marital Incest
Having sex with a woman during her menstrual period
Marrying your brother's wife
practicing sorceryall found in Chapter 20!Are all these things not like we "precieve them" today, and therefore okay to do??Be consistent. [qs]Murder is "Zimah", mixing fibers is "Toeyvah"[qs] says youbut i'll humor you for a quick second;HMMM, so the word is over things that should not be mixed together? Like two men mixing themselves between sheets, just like two family members or a human and an animal, etc... Yes it is. See Genesis 19:5 You mean when you and others seem to ignore what the Bible is saying, oh yes, yeees..."While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."
The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my freinds, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, dont do this disgraceful thing. Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, dont do such a disgraceful thing."
But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go."-Judges 19:22-25Interesting parallel, to the open minded that is. Of course, it is kind of interesting that your version of what happened at Sodom has only been around since the 70's, while the traditional version of what happened stems from ancient times. Perhaps too much dope messed with the heads of libber theologians, WINK."4-5. The men of the city, the men of Sodom...Where are the men. Throughout this sequence there is an ironic interplay between the "men" of Sodom, whose manliness is expressed in the universal impulse to homosexual gang rape, and the divine visitors who only seem to be "men".and8. I have two daughters who have known no man. Lot's shocking offer, about which the narrator, characteristically, makes no explicit judgement, is too patly explained as the reflex of an ancient Near Eastern code in which the sacredness of the host-guest bond took precedence over all other obligations. Lot surely is inciting the lust of the would-b rapists in using the same verb of sexual "knowledge" they had applied to the visitors in order to proffer the virginity of his daughters for their pleasure. The concluding episode of this chapter, in which the drunken Lot unwittingly takes the virginity of both his daughters, suggests measure-for-measure justice meted out for his rash offer."Courtesy of Robert Alter, "The Five Books of Moses: A Translation with Commentary", page 92.Plus The story of Sodom is seen also as an odd parallel to that of Genesis 6:1-4, where the "sons of God" (ie angels, angelic or supernatural beings, etc) come down and "take" women as their wives and bedding them. Now, humans are trying to make angels their bitches. They were into dicks, not chicks? Once again, they where more likely into dicks, not chicks. Of course, being a sex-crazed mob, they might have found Lot's pleading as stupid; they could take what they wanted. And how dare Lot to tell them how to live heir life and how wicked their wants were! How dare he tell them what type of love is okay and what type is not! That homosexual acts are wrong? I does. Ancient Canaanite deity, worshipped by means of child sacrifice. The admonition against passing children through the fire to Molech actually fits perfectly into the sexual sins passage. Hint: Passing your "seed" to Molech" (lbid, page 623). So beastiality, in a loving relationship, would be okay (Lev 18:23)?So now Adultery, Incest, not honoring your parents, sorcery, along with homosexual acts and beastiality considerd okay beyond ritual practices, since a chapter in Leviticus condemns them all by first starting out with a condemation of Molech child sacrifice?? See Leviticus 20:1-27. What about all those laws in between the two chapters? no Idolatry, no Lying, no stealing, respecting your parents, no perverting Justice, no slandering, no revenge and grudge baring, no eating meat with blood in it, no seeking the aide of wizards, etc? All these okay outside ritual? They're jam-packed between condemnations of Molech child sacrifice, for crying out loud ehhehehe.... Yet what does Adam say, and then the Bible states, about marraige??"The man said,"This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman', for she was takn out of man."For this reasona man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."
-Genesis 2:23-24Leaves out homosexual/beastial marraige (no He will be united with his husband, or she will be united with her wife). Maybe you should be wondering why, and not wasting my time trying to do the Biblical equivalent of trying to prove the earth is hollow.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

So any Greek who interprets Homer's Iliad, Oddyssey and greek mythology as a whole should be considered a higher authority than anyone else interpriting those texts/myths, because they are Greek in origin?So a 6 day Creationist should be the prme authority over scientists and atheists who interpret the Bible, because they are Judaic-Christian scriptures?And here's a hint; Christians may not have had the Torah as long as the Jews, but it is our text too.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Here issome more on Toeyvah"Something disgusting(mor.), i.e. (as noun)an abhorrence; espec. idolatry or (concr.) an idol: abomination (113x) abominable thing (2x), abominable (2x)
To/ebah means abomination; loathsome, detestable thing. (1) To'ebah defines something or someone as essentially unique in the sense of being dangerous, sinister, and repulsive to another individual (Gen 43:32; 46;34; Prov 29:27) (2) When used with reference to God, this word describes people, things, acts, relationships, and characteristics that are detestable to him because they are contrary to his nature; such as (2a) things related to death and idolatry (Deut 14:3); (2b)people with loathsome habits are themselves detestable to him (Deut22:5) (3) IT is used in some contexts to describe pagan practices and objects (Deut 7:25-26) (4) It describes the repeated failures to observe divine regulations (Eze 5:7, 9). (5) To'ebah may represent (5a)the pagan cultic practices themselves (Deut 12:31), or (5b)the people who perpetrate such practices (Deut 18:12). (6) It is used in the sphere of Jurisprudence and of family or tribal relationships; certain acts or characteristics are destructive of societal and familial harmony; both such things and the people who do them are described by to'ebah"The New strong's expanded Exahstve Concordance of the Bible, Red Letter edition, (Most accurate and up-to-date), by James Strong and John Kohlenberger (modern contributor)."A feminine noun meaning an abomination. This word is primarily understood in the context of the Law. It identifies unclean food (Deut 14:3); the activity of the idolater (Isa 41:24)the practice of child sacrifice (Deut 12:31); intermarraige by the Israelites (Mal. 2:11; the religious activities of the wicked (Prov 21:27); and homosexual behavior (Lev. 18:22). In a broader sense, the word is used to identify anything offensive (Prov 8:7)"Word study series: The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary; Old Testament" By Warren Baker, D.R.E. and Eugene Carpenter, Ph.D.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Thank you Catholic scientist
Its not easy debating this thread (despite the facts people still cling to their politics), and i have been tempted to just leave it, but i'm glad i'm not alone on this thread/forum. I hate to call somebody somthing like that, but the definition does fit. Not being insultive to Rrhain, but the definition sticks. Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4