Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,912 Year: 4,169/9,624 Month: 1,040/974 Week: 367/286 Day: 10/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Checking for validity of supposed early christian gay marriage rite
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 124 (480799)
09-06-2008 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by subbie
09-01-2008 8:13 PM


Getting on with the 21st century
quote:
we need to define it into law so that we can move on in the 21st century
Why?
Wouldn't that be in the best interests of everyone? The same problem occurred with bitter debates about what constitutes "human life" and when human life begins. This seems like another controversy that just needs to be put to rest by coming up with a clear definition for legal reasons, if nothing else.
But at a minimum, I think it should be a state's decision. Let each state decide for itself. So far California and Massachussets have the broadest scope of homosexual marriages or civil unions in the nation.
Of course this is only inclusive to the United States. As for other countries, it's your country, do what sovereign nations do and run your own country how your countrymen see fitting.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : No reason given.

“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by subbie, posted 09-01-2008 8:13 PM subbie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Fosdick, posted 09-06-2008 3:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 13 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 5:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 124 (480825)
09-06-2008 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Straggler
09-06-2008 5:32 PM


Re: Getting on with the 21st century
Has the implementation of a legal definition reduced the controversy at all? Genuine question. I am not suggesting it has not or that it has.
Well, no, it hasn't in many people's eyes. The Defense of Marriage Act plainly states that marriage constitutes a legal union between one man and one woman. But I don't think this should be a government issue.
To countries that don't have states, it may seem bizarre to have different laws, but I don't think the Federal government should have the right to intrude upon what the people want democratically.
The way it works is you have inalienable rights enumerated by the Constitution. Nothing can trump this. A state cannot decide all of a sudden that it doesn't agree with something Constitutionally protected. Then you have the United States Code, which lists Federal laws. And then you have state Constitutions and state laws.
I live on a federal base, so California law does not pertain to me when on federal property. However, as soon as I cross the gate, I am then subject to the laws of California. Think of an UK embassy in another country. When on that property, you are subject to English law, when off it, you are subject to the host nations laws.
Anyhow, since the Constitution doesn't mention marriage whatsoever, the Federal government should have no say in what the people of each state want to vote for democratically. I therefore think that each state, being both unified and independent, should have the right to a democratic vote.

“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 5:32 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by subbie, posted 09-06-2008 11:03 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 124 (480869)
09-07-2008 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by subbie
09-06-2008 11:03 PM


Re: Getting on with the 21st century
So does that mean that you think states should have the right to ban interracial marriages?
If they wanted to. It would probably be in the best interests of the state to listen to its constituents.
But if you think it all should go federal, then the debate is over and has been for a number of years now. Per the United States federal government, gay marriage is officially illegal, unrecognized, cannot be usurped by state law, etc.
Is that what you really want?

“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by subbie, posted 09-06-2008 11:03 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by subbie, posted 09-07-2008 10:52 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2008 1:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 124 (480873)
09-07-2008 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by subbie
09-07-2008 10:52 AM


Re: Getting on with the 21st century
No, what I really want is for everyone to understand that the Constitution prohibits states and the federal government from making certain types of distinctions based on gender.
Well, as it stands it is prohibited. And if it goes to the Supreme Court, you will lose, because I'm pretty sure that the majority of Justices do not interpret the Constitution applying to homosexual marriage. Furthermore, the proposition has come across their desks, and they said, this is a state issue, and they referred the problem to the states to deal for themselves. That should be a good thing for your cause, because the Constitution doesn't grant you the right to marry, the Federal government shouldn't deny or grant you the right to marry, and 8 people should not unilaterally decide the fate of thousands of people.

“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by subbie, posted 09-07-2008 10:52 AM subbie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2008 2:04 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 32 by kuresu, posted 09-09-2008 12:49 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 124 (480902)
09-07-2008 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rrhain
09-07-2008 1:57 PM


Soveriegnty
A state has the right to violate the Constitution?
It is not a Constitutional question according to the SCOTUS. There is a reason why it has never been decided in this highest court of the land, and that is because they don't want to take the cases. It is not for lack of effort, it's because they have decided that states should decide for themselves.
Huh? Who said anything about a federal marriage license? Nobody here did. Where did this come from?
I was referring to DOMA not federal marriage licenses.
That's what the Supreme Court is for. As Scalia himself noted, Lawrence v. Texas pretty much declares that DOMA is unconstitutional.
I agree, which is why it should be left up to the state's decide for themselves, which is what I've said numerous times now.

“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2008 1:57 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2008 5:04 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 124 (480903)
09-07-2008 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rrhain
09-07-2008 2:04 PM


Interpretations
Scalia was falling all over himself to claim that it was a disaster to allow gay people the same rights as straight people because if we were to do so, then it would require that we allow gay people the right to marry.
The bulk of the argument in favor of Lawrence vs Texas had almost nothing to do with homosexuality, except for Texas' defense. What Lawrence v Texas boiled down to was a question of the right to privacy in one's own home, something that is unambiguously protected by the Constitution.
It is therefore irrelevant to the current discussion. The fact that the accused were homosexual was merely incidental to the question of privacy.
So if Scalia thinks that the precedent set by Lawrence v. Texas is to allow same-sex marriage, what makes you think that he'll violate his own understanding of the Constitution?
I don't know. I'm not Scalia, nor have I read his dissent on the case.
There has not been any challenge to DOMA. The only challenges have been to state-level DOMAs and so far, every single case that has gone to a state court regarding such restrictions have been overturned.
In lieu of the SCOTUS' denial to take such cases. This is how it works. A case goes to a county court. County court decides. Another appeal is made, it goes to a District Court. Another appeal is made, it goes to Supreme Court of that State. Another appeal is made, it goes to either the District Court of the United States or to the SCOTUS.
So Loving v. Virginia, which dealt with a "state issue," was wrongly decided.
Is that what you're saying?
If there is a fundamental question about Constitutional law, which is only what the SCOTUS deals with, that is what basis they have for taking a case. Again, an appeal is made, if the SCOTUS decides there is a legitimate basis for taking a case, on the pretense that some Constitutional rights might be violated, then and only then do they take the case. Otherwise, it is for the states to decide for themselves.
With Loving v. Virginia, they obviously felt there was some looming question concerning the Constitutionality of the case.
My stance is that the federal government should neither regulate personal relationships nor discriminate against individuals for their personal preferences. Laws regulating marriage should be left to the states, precisely where the Constitution places the issue.
Regardless of whether one supports or opposes same sex marriage, the decision to recognize such unions ought to be made by each state rather than imposed as a one-size-fits-all mandate by the federal government. Any federal laws that prevent states from determining their own standards for marriage should be repealed; the federal government should not define marriage, whether by statute or constitutional amendment.
In this way, every state would remain free to determine for its citizens the basis on which marriage would be recognized within its borders, and would not be forced to adopt a contrary determination legislated by another state.
Again, have you read Loving v. Virginia? It declares that marriage is a fundamental right. Are you saying Loving v. Virginia was wrongly decided?
I too believe marriage is a fundamental right. What constitutes a marriage is an entirely different question, and one that has to have careful consideration, otherwise it opens the door to bizarre interpretations. Only in the regard that it attempted to define marriage do I find DOMA agreeable.
If the restriction of freedom is in itself unconstitutional, then prisoners guilty of a crime are being treated unconstitutionally. Or more likely, using the blanket terminology of "freedom" needs to be understood in context.
All that really concerns me is that marriage be clearly defined to keep aberrations of it out of society, and for the government to stick its nose out of the affairs of the states. But if it goes to the Supreme Court, and they decide that homosexual marriage is a Constitutionally protected right, then so be it.
At least then we can get on with life.

“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2008 2:04 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2008 6:45 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 124 (481030)
09-08-2008 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Rrhain
09-07-2008 6:45 PM


Where do you come up with this nonsense?
quote:
I'm not Scalia, nor have I read his dissent on the case.
You did not just say that, did you? You presumed to comment about a decision you didn't even read? You think you are capable of determining what the point of a decision was, what its content said, what the points it made were, all without even bothering to read it?
I can't get in to the full debate at the present time, but I wanted to touch on this. What in God's name does Scalia's dissent have to do with the case if it came to nothing? Remember, Texan law was found unconstitutional by the rest of the Justices. We all know that Scalia is not a fan of gay marriage. Uh... But what does your erroneous citation of Texas v Lawrence have to do with gay marriage? What does his opinion have to do with it? He has no bearing on it. So when I saw that I didn't read it, and you have an aneurysm as if you had some kind of epiphany, check your facts as it is not in any way relevant to the current discussion.
So my comment still stands. Texas v Lawrence is less about homosexuality than it is about privacy, which makes me wonder why anyone uses this case as some sort of blanket defense for homosexual marriage. It has nothing to do with it!
Two guys were having consensual sex in the privacy of their own home, and some Texan cops illegally entered that home to arrest the men for sodomy. That is what the case is about. The only part where homosexuality comes in to play is that the witnessing of homosexual acts was used as probable cause to enter the home.
So please tell me how Scalia's dissenting opinion, an opinion that ultimately lost the case altogether, factor in to a case about privacy? What in the hell does that have to do with marriage, let alone gay marriage????

“Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2008 6:45 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Rrhain, posted 09-09-2008 1:32 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024