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Junior Member (Idle past 5721 days) Posts: 44 From: Denton, Texas, United States Joined: |
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Author | Topic: A Genesis Day and the Age of the Earth: what does the Bible say? | |||||||||||||||||||
doctrbill Member (Idle past 2794 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Bambootiger writes: ... day 7 did not have an end. Since it is a reasonable conclusion that he days of the creation account are of equal length, we can gain understanding of the issue of the length of the creative days by considering the length of the seventh day. At Hebrews 4:1-10, Paul quotes from Psalm 95:11 to demonstrate that the Israelites of Moses' day had the opportunity to enter into God's day of rest, but these failed to do so because of their lack of faith, and disobedience, and he then indicates that Christians of his time still had the opportunity to do so because that seventh day was still continuing. So the conclusion this leads to is that the seventh day is thousands of years long and thus the other days would be as long also. God's Day of Rest? Let's see if your Bible study rings true to the purpose of your argument. I prefer to begin with the Old Testament quotes and work forward.
quote: One rather telling rendition of verse 11 which I like because it is true to the context (the entry into Canaan) reads:
quote: The "rest" i.e. "place of rest" being the promised land. Now let us turn to what Paul is on about. I am going to continue with the NLT because it reads so easily by comparison.
quote: They were killed, or allowed to die, so they would not enter into "the rest" AKA "place of rest" AKA Promised Land. Paul goes on to draw a spiritual lesson from that wilderness experience, comparing the then modern Jews to those ancient ones, and faith in Moses, to faith in Jesus. The previous "rest" was a piece of ground, the very land of promise. Now, however, the "rest" is something else, something more spiritual, less tangible but none-the-less desirable. Even now, says Paul, it awaits the people of God.
quote: Note the expressions: "new place of rest" (described as different from the first); and "special rest" (which awaits the people of God); and "another dayof rest" different from the first. Note Paul's use of the past tense: "God rested," rather than the present tense which, if that day is ongoing, should read: "God is resting." This is clearly NOT about God having ceased his creative activity. If you doubt that, you can actually look at the universe and see that he continues to be rather busy. This is clearly about obedience to God, being in harmony with his will, the reward for which is - a "place of rest" - "still waiting for the people of God." I believe your hypothesis has just lost a leg. They shoot horses, don't they? Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2794 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
I wish I could say you have an hypothesis going but I'm afraid that is not the case.
I have other problems with your OP but chose this one because no one had yet touched it.
Bambootiger writes: ... the conclusion this leads to is that the seventh day is thousands of years long and thus the other days would be as long also. You seem to think it significant that the Scripture does not specifically say, "Day Seven Ended." Is it not enough that it says: God rested and was refreshed?
quote: Notice the past tense. If what you propose were true then it should read: God is resting (present tense) and will be refreshed (future tense).
Their rest was in the promised land, but the land inself was not that rest. That seems reasonable. It is also reasonable for the NLT to give "rest" {menukah (H4496)} as "place of rest" in this circumstance; for it fits the context and is translated that way in other places by the KJV:
quote: Note the poetic parallelisms: "peacable habitation" - "sure dwellings" - "quiet resting places." Bambootiger writes: As for where that rest is read Matthew 5:5 where Jesus was quoting from Psalms 37. Thar is our promised land now.
quote: First you say the "rest" was NOT about the land, then you suggest that it IS about the land: the entire "earth." I am confused. You want this "rest" to be a chronological argument regarding the age of the earth. You also want it as a reward given to the faithful; a huge piece of real estate: an entire planet. On the other hand, you want the spiritual interpretation which Paul gives it: blessings enjoyed by those who "Become reconciled to God." The image this brings to my mind is: eons of unemployment benefits while hanging out with God until he decides to go back to work! That's probably not what you wanted me to think. Yes? Your campaign has been valiant and I would give you an 'A' for effort but so far I see no evidence nor logical progression which would lead me to your conclusion. Your premise regarding Yes. This leg is definately broken. Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2794 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Bambootiger writes: A more modern and accurate translation shows that Genesis 2:2,3 are not in the past tense. Look at the Hebrew: (Genesis 2:2) 2 And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. . . "And he proceeded to rest." Heb., wai”yish”both’. The verb is in the imperfect state denoting incomplete or continuous action, or action in progress. (Genesis 2:3) 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making. , "he does rest (desist)." Heb., sha”vath’, perfect state. It shows the characteristic of an individual, namely, God, on the seventh day of his creative week. (BBE) Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God came to the end of all his work; and on the seventh day he took his rest from all the work which he had done. (BBE) Genesis 2:3 And God gave his blessing to the seventh day and made it holy: because on that day he took his rest from all the work which he had made and done. (GodsWord) Genesis 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished work he had been doing. On the seventh day he stopped the work he had been doing. (GodsWord) Genesis 2:3 "Then God blessed the seventh day and set it apart as holy, because on that day he stopped all his work of creation." (Young) Genesis 2:2 and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. (Young) Genesis 2:3 And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making. (TEV) Genesis 2:3 He blessed the seventh day and set it apart as a special day, because by that day he had completed his creation and stopped working. Let me just quote the relavent portion of Hebrews, but first consider that the rest here to which Christians could enter into was not the promised land, because that is where they already lived.: (Hebrews 3:18-4:10) 18 But to whom did he swear that they should not enter into his rest except to those who acted disobediently? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of lack of faith. 4 Therefore, since a promise is left of entering into his rest, let us fear that sometime someone of YOU may seem to have fallen short of it. 2 For we have had the good news declared to us also, even as they also had; but the word which was heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who did hear. 3 For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: "So I swore in my anger, ”They shall not enter into my rest,’" although his works were finished from the founding of the world. 4 For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works," 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter into my rest." 6 Since, therefore, it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again marks off a certain day by saying after so long a time in David’s [psalm] "Today"; just as it has been said above: "Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts." 8 For if Joshua had led them into a place of rest, [God] would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 So there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. 10 For the man that has entered into [God’s] rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own. Some of the cross references: Verse 18 (Numbers 14:30) 4:1 a (Exodus 20:11) 11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred. "And he proceeded to rest." Progressive action indicated by a Heb. verb in the imperfect state. 4:1b Galations 5:4; Hebrews 3:12;12:15 4:2a Matthew 4:23; Acts 15:7; Colossians 1:23 (the good news of God's Kingdom) 4:2b (Exodus 19:5) 5 And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. (It wasn't the place, but their relationship with God, and service to him) Verse 3 quotes Psalms 95:11 Verse 4 quotes Genesis 2:2 Verse 5 quotes Psalm 85:11 again Verse 7 quotes Psalms 95:7 and verse 8 verse 8a (Joshua 22:4) 4 And now Jehovah YOUR God has given YOUR brothers rest, just as he promised them. So now turn and go YOUR way to YOUR tents in the land of YOUR possession, which Moses the servant of Jehovah gave YOU on the other side of the Jordan. 8b (Jeremiah 6:16) . . .6 This is what Jehovah has said: "Stand still in the ways, YOU people, and see, and ask for the roadways of long ago, where, now, the good way is; and walk in it, and find ease for YOUR souls." But they kept saying: "We are not going to walk." The key to the goal that Paul was pointing is verse 2 where it refers to the "Good News" and Jesus said that this was concerning "God's Kingdom". This is the Kingdom he taught us to pray for in the model prayer ; the goverment which will accomplish God's original purpose for man and the earth This ties in with Matthew 5:5 and Psalms 37 from where Jesus quoted it. It is not the place, the earth, but what God will do for us there which is described in Revelation 20:12,13 and 22:1,2 We can enter into God's rest by obediance to him. However, again, the point is that Paul quoted from Genesis and said that while God "proceeded to rest" that day od reat was still continuing. First let me say that Your formatting sucks!. Your paragraphs, quotes and comments all run together as if you have copied someone else's argument without cleaning it up for us; without considering how difficult it might be for your reader's to decipher what you have posted. Running with scissors, cutting-&-pasting like there's no tomorrow. A cut-&paste orgy. You know that's against our rules. Don't you? It is your job to find and present the gems you believe to be located in the ore of scripture. What I see resembles a worthless pile of tailings. You often fail to note the version you are quoting and you fail set your quotes apart from the body of your comments. There may be an argument in there somewhere but I am getting a headache looking for it. Is that your tactic? Are you afraid you haven't dazzled us with your brilliance so now you seek to baffle us with your bullshit? I'm sure you can do better. I believe I have seen you do better. Even so, for your sake, despite my annoyance and an increasingly negative opinion regarding your attention to detail, I will attempt to find your precious in this train wreck of a post.
Bambootiger writes: A more modern and accurate translation shows that Genesis 2:2,3 are not in the past tense. Look at the Hebrew: My reference was to Exodus NOT Genesis.
(and your assertion of a "more ... accurate translation" is highly debatable, especially when you do not cite the name of the translation to which you refer). Are you not concerned about the apparent contradiction this represents? And it is not an isolated incident, you know? Here's another, from the Ten Commandments no less:
quote: And concerning that "rest" there are these clarifications:
quote: This "sabbath of rest" is clearly the seventh day of the weekly cycle. It memorializes creation week.
"God worked six days and took the seventh off. You are to do the same" (paraphrasing Moses). There is no record of Jesus mentioning a "day" which is eons long. There is no record of Jesus mentioning that God has stopped creating things. There is a record of how Jesus related to the Sabbath: he is called "Lord of the sabbath," and was ressurected "in the end of the sabbath" - "when the sabbath was past." Seems to me this might suggest that the "sabbath" you imagine had come to an end like a lot of other things from the Old Testament are supposed to have done at the time of Jesus' crucifixion.
quote: Paul quoted from Genesis and said that while God "proceeded to rest" that day od reat was still continuing. Says your favorite "translation" which you have yet to identify. Theology is the science of Dominion. - - - My God is your god's Boss - - -
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