Author
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Topic: We Evolved Pretty Quickly
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Message 2 of 46 (44923)
07-03-2003 4:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by DC85 07-03-2003 2:18 AM
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Re: we are very Rare Creatures
Well ... technically we are one of the results of approx. 3.5billion years of evolution. That is we have had 65million years MORE than the dinosaurs.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 1 by DC85, posted 07-03-2003 2:18 AM | | DC85 has not replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 6 by mark24, posted 07-10-2003 5:50 AM | | Peter has replied |
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Message 7 of 46 (45608)
07-10-2003 9:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by mark24 07-10-2003 5:50 AM
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I was really just pointing out the mis-conception about how long it took us to evolve. The preexisting traits that led to us were evolving for millions of years prior to the 65million referred to as the time to produce humans. If WE burn more fuel due to our intelligence, then the same fitness benefit would apply to any creature. If we don't, then, well, the reasoning kindof fails there All extant creatures are the result of the last 3.5Billion years of evolution on the planet. Truncating that at some arbitray point in the past is, well, arbitrary ... and in my opinion mis-leading.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 6 by mark24, posted 07-10-2003 5:50 AM | | mark24 has not replied |
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Message 8 of 46 (45609)
07-10-2003 9:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 3 by DC85 07-03-2003 12:56 PM
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Maybe ... thems the chances you take with allowing an evolutionary system to get going. The problem I have always had with the 'global extinction of dinosaurs' is that that is not what you can see from the fossil record. What you see is that a large number of species of dinosaur disappeared ... those that accept that birds stem directly from dinos. cannot calim global dino. extinction, since every christmas robin is a descendent of the dino. family branch that led there.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 3 by DC85, posted 07-03-2003 12:56 PM | | DC85 has not replied |
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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I like it And it is consistent with scientific research from a variety of fields. In this thread, however, the OP suggested an acceptance of the contempory modern time-scale for the earth and life upon it ... so this issue is off topic for this thread.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 07-10-2003 11:23 AM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Re: we are very Rare Creatures
quote:
Now, if we are to believe Mr. Spielberg, at least one of the dinosaur species themselves was pretty high up on the list of smart things
Jurassic Park is based on the novel by Micheal Crichton -- and he does do his researcha nd have access to various knowledgable sources (or so he claims)
This message is a reply to: | | Message 11 by Parasomnium, posted 07-18-2003 6:57 AM | | Parasomnium has not replied |
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Re: we are very Rare Creatures
quote:
But again, you might also have meant to say that something conscious did not evolve. If so, you have a point, because consciousness (of the type we humans possess) is indeed unique in the animal kingdom, as far as I know
How exactly DO you know that?
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Re: we are very Rare Creatures
That was why I said 'How do you know' ... becuase you said 'as far as I know'. Your answer tells me that you are guessing rather than basing your supposition on any particular data/research findings etc. How do you know that chimpanzees aren't conscious in the same sense that we are? Or lions and tigers and bears, oh my... What is the measure of consciousness, or the method for detecting it or ... hopefully you see what I am asking now.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 28 by Parasomnium, posted 07-30-2003 3:35 AM | | Parasomnium has not replied |
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Re: Traits and evolution
quote:
Substantial morphological or biochemical changes can lead to new traits which then lead to a whole new series of adaptations
What I meant (rather than individual traits per se) was that extant traits are founded on traits that preceded them. To say that the latest model of car is 'new' neglects the fact that without the Model-T it wouldn't exist in its current form. Evolution is a process of change and (very loosely speaking) refinement over time. It reminds me of Newton's 'If I have seen farther it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants.' In specific reference to consciousness we cannot know that dinosaurs (for example) were not conscious ... unless one comes up and asks us to tea of course. [This message has been edited by Peter, 07-30-2003]
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Message 31 of 46 (47965)
07-30-2003 4:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 25 by zephyr 07-29-2003 1:02 PM
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Re: we are very Rare Creatures
My feeling, from things I have read and behaviours I have seen (in documentaries -- unfortunately I don't get out the serengetti nearly as much as I'd like ) I would consider some degree of consciouness necesarry for social animals -- not necessarily hive/insect type societies -- but who knows? In another response I asked about how one can measure consciousness, any ideas?
This message is a reply to: | | Message 25 by zephyr, posted 07-29-2003 1:02 PM | | zephyr has not replied |
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Re: we are very Rare Creatures
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'How consciousness is measured' needs a bit more elaboration, I think. What exactly about consciousness is it that we would like to measure? The degree of self-consciousness? The extend to which an animal is able to project himself into a future scenario? Or into someone else's shoes?
That's why I asked. Are those things above indicators of consciousness? What IS consciuosness?
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You mentioned "social animals -- not necessarily hive/insect type societies --" What about the 'consciousness' of an insect society as a whole?
I have no problem with that as a concept -- I was simply alluding to the proposition that complex behaviour can emerge from the interaction of multiple agents following simple rules. This is less likely to be a factor of, say, lionesses/wolves hunting in groups. It largely depends on what consciousness is considered to be.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 33 by Parasomnium, posted 07-30-2003 5:02 AM | | Parasomnium has not replied |
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: 02-05-2002
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Thanks, I'll search around.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 32 by Wounded King, posted 07-30-2003 4:55 AM | | Wounded King has not replied |
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