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Author Topic:   What could/would falsify Irreducible Complexity?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 72 (456848)
02-20-2008 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by tesla
02-20-2008 9:41 AM


tesla writes:
what is the simplest form of carbon?
Oh, for crying out loud, there's no such thing as "simplest form of carbon" because carbon is an atom that happens to be able to form 4 very strong covalent bonds with many other atoms.
"living" is accepted by all as what is considered "biological". but if all things "alive" came from what everyone calls "not alive" then how could anything be any more or less alive than the system that it was spawned from?
There's no fine line between living things and nonliving things. It's like color. Red and orange are obvious colors of their own, but where does red ends and orange begins?
atoms have a very powerful energy of the "strong" force, and react and evolve within conditions, like biological things.
Did you just make this statement to sound smart?
when an atom ceases to be iron, and becomes steel, did the iron "die"?
Oh, for christ sake, steel is an alloy, a combination of iron and a small amount of carbon. Iron in steel remains iron.
i believe that only living things come from the living, and that our universe is a "living" body.
And you got this from your very inaccurate statements above?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by tesla, posted 02-20-2008 9:41 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by tesla, posted 02-20-2008 12:00 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 17 of 72 (456849)
02-20-2008 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by mrjoad2
02-20-2008 11:08 AM


Bravo! to your first post, mrjoad2. Welcome!
What IC fails to account is that seemingly IC units when reduced CAN perform other functions. The flagellum is a perfect example of this. When certain parts are taken out, it could be used by the bacterium to inject toxin into a eukaryotic cell.
By the way, if you press the reply button on the bottom right hand corner of a particular post, then it will show that you are responding to that post. This helps us keep track of who's talking to who. Otherwise, by using the general reply button all the time we will become a group of people yelling past each other.

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 Message 14 by mrjoad2, posted 02-20-2008 11:08 AM mrjoad2 has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 20 of 72 (456860)
02-20-2008 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by tesla
02-20-2008 12:00 PM


tesla writes:
then isn't bonds with carbon , alloy's of carbon, and carbon remains carbon in the alloy?
Carbon is carbon, no matter what it is bonded with.
what does carbon look like if separated from anything it could bond with?
It looks like carbon. It looks like nothing.
Atoms are colorless and some would argue that they are shapeless as well. When you are talking about atomic and subatomic matter, you need to stop thinking in term of normal macro matter. Don't think of them as solid objects like we are used to in everyday life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by tesla, posted 02-20-2008 12:00 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by tesla, posted 02-20-2008 12:47 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 22 of 72 (456864)
02-20-2008 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by tesla
02-20-2008 12:47 PM


tesla writes:
then the basic carbon atom is the simplest form?
There's no such thing as "simplest form" of carbon atom. Carbon atom is carbon atom.
Think of it this way. You have 10 persons in the room. They all hold hands. Is a person any less of a person if he stops holding hand with another person? Is he any more of a person if he holds hands with another person?
can it be reduced?
Define "reduced".
if i took 1 billion carbon atoms, and took away all other elements it would bond with, would it not have a form you could visually see?
You're committing the fallacy of composition. Look that up and tell me if you get it or not.
By the way, 1 billion carbon atoms ain't nothing.
Edited by Taz, : Added person analogy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by tesla, posted 02-20-2008 12:47 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by tesla, posted 02-20-2008 1:06 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 27 of 72 (456872)
02-20-2008 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by tesla
02-20-2008 1:06 PM


tesla writes:
if carbon atom is a carbon atom, is that not its simplest form? if you cannot reduce it, is it not irreducible? if it cannot be made any less complex, is that not irreducible complexity?
No, because if you take away an electron, it becomes a positively charged carbon atom. If you take away a proton, it becomes a boron.
no, the person is a person such as others are people, but if you cannot visually see what a person looks like unless you have all 10 people present, then let them join hands, because then you can gather more information : such as, visual verification.
Are you telling me that a person looks like 10 people together? What planet do you live on?
Example
Atoms are not visible to the naked eye
Humans are made up of atoms
Therefore, humans are not visible to the naked eye
have i committed the fallacy, or have you?
You're the one that implied we could see what carbon looks like if we have a billion carbon atoms together. Who's committing this fallacy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by tesla, posted 02-20-2008 1:06 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by tesla, posted 02-20-2008 2:21 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 37 of 72 (456888)
02-20-2008 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by tesla
02-20-2008 2:21 PM


tesla writes:
then which is the simpler form? if it becomes boron, it is no longer carbon, so what is the simplest form of carbon before it is no longer carbon?
Again, depends on what you mean by "simplest". Carbon tends to form bonds with other elements to fill up its valence shell. So, is "simplest" just mean the least number of particles in the atom or the most stable form of the atom?
which has least energy, a positively charged carbon, or a carbon with the extra electron? which has more substance?
*Blink* You did not just say that did you?
This conversation is getting a little redundant.
What do you mean by "substance"?
it was your analogy concerning atoms. so it was a description concerning how atoms are visible when combined with other atoms, and if all atoms are the same type, then a visual verification of the atom is available collectively.
No, it was YOU who proposed that we could see what carbon looks like if we have a billion carbons together.
we can see what the atoms look like collectively, which is a reflection of the base component that cannot be seen unless in a collective environment.
Reflection? You've brought a completely new meaning to the composition fallacy.

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