Did Jesus die in vain?

*shakes head* A pristine example of how satan's lie* works down to the core of even an intelligent, educated atheist. You must have been out on the day I was dealing with the illogic of that (* that you must do something to contribute to your salvation)Hi Larni.

You were looking for clarification on Jesus potentially paying for all sin vs. Jesus effectively paying only for the sin of the saved.Potential payment should be clear enough. It's like potential anything. It does nothing unless the potential is released.Effective payment should also be clear enough. It's like effective anything. It does things.In order to convert any potential into an effective, something must happen. The rock must be rolled off the hill, the light switch must be turned on, the tap must be opened.The saved are those for whom the potential has been unlocked and become effective. The eternally lost are those for whom the potential remained potential. Jesus doesn't pay for their sin. They pay for their sin themselves.Clearer?Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This topic is right up my alley. I would like to investigate these assumptions. Can you give me one? Maybe I can change your mind?

Sorry, I wasn't actually meaning the bible definiton as you are an atheist and don't believe in god. You cannot use examples of that which you don't believe to be true to support your point. You cannot use evidence against something you do not believe in because you are bound to find supporting evidense. Using evidence to prove that which you believe in is the only evidense appropriate to test accurately.As you are a self proclaimed atheist I wonder why you joined this topic?

Clarification:Taking it as true/fact that Jesus died on the cross and taking it as true that Jesus died for our sins, how is it affecting our lives today?I believe (supported by watching the news and the prison demograpthics) that sin/evil/bad/dark/negative behaviour exists in the world.I believe that Jesus did not die for our sins in any way, shape or form. I believe this belief is causing friggin havoc. Thankyou for helping me find a more precise (I hope) way of expressing myself.

Thanks nator, This puts a different complexion on it.In this case Jesus had a bummer of a job What would be the point in Jesus dying to have our sins forgiven when we keep on sinning? Surely Jesus teachings and examples are for the benefit of humanity here on earth?

But don't you see? That's the beauty of it! We can happily keep on sinning in the knowledge that our sins are forgiven anyway. (Except maybe for some very heinous sins.) It's a win-win situation: you reap the benefits of your sins, and in the end you still go to Heaven.What a nice religion, with in-built hypocrisy.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

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As you are a self proclaimed atheist I wonder why you joined this topic?

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Because this is in "free for all" not faith and belief and because I didn't see a disclaimer that said "christians only". You asked a question, I provided an answer.

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Sorry, I wasn't actually meaning the bible definiton as you are an atheist and don't believe in god. You cannot use examples of that which you don't believe to be true to support your point.

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Then the answer is - nothing. Sin does not exist, it's a fiction.

you're a little devil. ha ha ha

[qs]As you are a self proclaimed atheist I wonder why you joined this topic?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Because this is in "free for all" not faith and belief and because I didn't see a disclaimer that said "christians only". You asked a question, I provided an answer.[qs] OK As a self proclaimed atheist I wonger why you were interested in the topic? A genuine question.

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OK As a self proclaimed atheist I wonger why you were interested in the topic? A genuine question.

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It was top of the list when I got here yesterday - there is no complexity in my selection of topics.

It should be clear by now that when you say "our", the grouping you are referring to must be mentioned as well. Is it:a) Affecting our (the saved) lives today?b) Affect our (the unsaved) lives today?It should also be clear that Jesus dying (potentially) for the sins of the unsaved will have no affect on their lives. At least, not until they become saved. How it affects the lives of the saved is a different and broader issue. I agree. To be expected (in unmistakable fashion) if most people are not saved. The Bible indicates that most people are not and will not be saved. Your belief is noted. I believe the precise opposite. Your welcome Edited by iano, : No reason given.

In his presentation of gospel mechanics (in the book of Romans), Paul deals with (only) a couple of objections that will arise in the mind of someone who is faced with the fall-out arising from the gospel of grace he is expounding.Yours is one of the couple. The bulk of Romans chap 6 was written to refute you. I sliced this bit out of the above objectioin due to it's Roman Catholic undertones - which have no place in a gospel of grace. Rid of it, your objection is a text book example.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Hi Iano. I seem to remember that I grasped that the only thing you had to 'do' for salvation was not reject the gift when offered.

I'm game.To keep it on topic I would suggest that one assumption that one has to make for the sacrifice of Jesus to have any meaning on a metaphysical level is that Sin (as an entity that is applied to a human and keeps her out of heaven) is real.This is an assumption that I cannot make.Your go.