Did Jesus die in vain?

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What would be the point in Jesus dying to have our sins forgiven when we keep on sinning? Surely Jesus teachings and examples are for the benefit of humanity here on earth?

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Well, I would agree that the teachings of Jesus, even if he was a purely fictional construct, are as good as most any others'. "Be good to one another, take care of the poor, etc."Mostly, I think the benefit is felt mostly by those who believe they are "saved" or "born again", becasue they can believe themselves special and part of an elite group that will enjoy bliss in heaven rather than eternal torment in hell.

It was more like "not reject God's attempt to place the gift in your hands". The only thing your doing (eg: pulling your hands away) contributes to is your damnation.There is no doing of any description which contributes to your salvation. Except perhaps, doing nothing.In a nutshell. God will do all the work necessary to result in your salvation unless you prevent, reject and destroy what he attempts to achieve. The best thing for you to do is absolutely....nothing.

what if he hardens your heart and removes your free will?

It gets even better. If something in a religion bothers you, you can give it a new interpretation, or, if you're not particularly inventive, you can pronounce it to be heretic. You can even start your own sect, the possibilities are endless. (In religion, the sky is most definitely not the limit.)In short: I don't think refutation is one of the strong points of religion.By the way, "Gospel mechanics", capital joke. The perfect antidote for rational thinking. It's even got its own exclusion principle. And, yes, I know it wasn't a joke. That makes it even funnier.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

Free will? Who said that lost men had free will?

Whatever, I just thought it was of interest that of the very few objections to the gospel dealt with by Paul, yours was an example delivered in (almost) pristine form.The book of Romans is addressed to believers who might be labouring under the same illusion that you are w.r.t the gospel. There is no expectation that an unbeliever would give it the time of day.

Well, even his teachings aren't followed, and heaven and hell are not of this world so does Jesus only help the born again in this world?

would you define the acceptance of the belief that Jesus is the begotten son of God who was sent to this earth to be sacrificed for our sins, as 'doing' something?

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

Hi Heinrik, I think there is a big misunderstanding about Jesus dying for our sins. I myself have probably contributed to that misunderstanding on many occasions in my lifetime.Heinrik you asked: Did Jesus truly die for our sins?To be truthful and answer your question I would have to say no.Because He died to give you the opportunity not to suffer the penalty of sin.The first man disobeyed a direct order from God. Because of that disobedience he was separated from God.Every person that is born and reaches the age that they know good and evil as that man did in the garden is separated from God.Jesus came and was made to suffer physically and spiritually so you and I could be brought back to that perfect relationship God had with the first man when they could walk and talk together.So if you lived a perfect life from birth until death you could not be in the presence of God. Because you would still be separated from God, as you inherited that position from your ancestor.God offers a full pardon for that sin to reunite you into the position of a son of God. You must be born into His Family. The pardon also covers anything you have done in your life that is contrary to the will of God.Heinrik there will be sin as long as there is humans beings and the devil on the earth.May you have a happy journey,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

"Our" is the "whole" of humanity affecting "all" our lives today. Was not this Jesus purpose?

Hi Larni, Why would anybody have to assume anything? Why would you make that assumption?You do not believe in God.
You do not believe in the Bible.If there is no God then there is no sin. I can therefore do as I please.Now let me put it this way.If there is a God?Who had a record put in a book called the Bible in which He says that man has been separated from Him by disobeying (sin) Him. That book also telling of His only Begotten Son paying the debt so man could receive a free pardon, and not have to suffer the penalty of eternal separation from Him in the lake of fire.Does it make any difference what You or I think about it.
If we refuse to believe in God does that change anything?
If You and I believe in God does that change anything?
If You or I refuse to believe in the Bible, does that change anything?
If You or I refuse to believe in Jesus, does that change anything?
If You or I refuse to receive the pardon offered, does that change anything.
If You or I refuse to believe in the lake of fire, does that change anything?This God's book told us His only Begotten Son died to pay our debt and offered us a full pardon if we would believe and trust in Him.Would it change anything if we believed it?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi LegendI'm not quite sure what "acceptance of the belief" is supposed to mean precisely. On changing from not being a Christian to being a Christian, you believe that Jesus is... You don't "accept the belief" (whose belief do you mean?) that Jesus is...But I think I know what you mean. It might help if we stuck to a biblical example such as 'calling upon the name of the Lord'. As in: "and all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved". Calling is something that is associated with the people doing the calling. Is this doing something? It might appear so...But what causes them to call out is God's action upon them. He squeezes and they squeak. So it is not really accurate to say that they are doing anything as such - given that their calling is completely God's doing. Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I repeat. There is no collective "our" when it comes to Jesus' purpose. He has one purpose for the saved. And another purpose for the non-saved (namely to make it possible that they be saved)Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Why does Jesus divide humanity in this way? How does he make it possible to be saved?

Strictly speaking it's not Jesus who divides humanity this way but the God the Father who divides humanity this way. It's the Father who does the saving. Jesus is the key piece of 'equipment' (so to speak) used by the Father in the process of saving someone.Secondly, it's not God alone who divides in this way, but a combination of the interaction between man and God that divides humanity in this way. Some men don't reject God's efforts to save them and ...er... become saved. Other men do reject God's efforts to save them and remain lost (I say 'remain' because the lost condition is the default condition, the starting position... that all mankind is born into).Jesus figures in a persons salvation in various ways. The prime way in which he figures is in his acting as a receptacle into which a persons sin can be cast, by God. Once there, they are dealt with according to God's uncircumventable (uncircumventable even by God) justice. Currently, your sin acts as a barrier between you and God. Because of it there is no relationship between you and God. If God can somehow take your sin from you then there is no barrier anymore - you are "saved from your sin". But God must put the sin somewhere to be dealt with justly (that is: your sin must be punished no matter what). So, after taking it from you he gives it to Jesus, and Jesus accepts it.Caught in possession of your sin (so to speak) Jesus is punished instead of you. The alternative (if you are not saved) is that you are caught in possession of your sin and are punished for it yourself.Edited by iano, : No reason given.