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Member (Idle past 5975 days) Posts: 132 From: Washington, DC, US Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Lake Varve Sediments and the Great Flood | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
But that says nothing since you are asserting some imaginary flood. But it is consistent with it. However, you are the one with the problem, since you can't show any observations over millions of years that they were layed down annually. Nothing that is, but your imagination. You also can't account for the smoothness of the varves. Not consistent with errosion, or other disturbances, that surely would have happened if they were layed down over millions of years. And, of course, you still have the problem of the fossils, which experiments have shown will decay or break down even if protected from oxygen or scavengers.
In addition you need to describe the model that creates over 4 million alternating varves of light and dark, finer and coarser silt. I've already shown you experiments that prove this can be done quickly, but you either didn't understand the evidence or you rejected it out of hand. Very scientific of you. But here is another attempt:
Experiments on Lamination of Sediments
| Answers in Genesis
http://geology.ref.ac/berthault/ Donate | The Institute for Creation Research
There is no reason that the number of layers should be the same between the ash layers. In fact that simply adds additional weight since obviously they are NOT the mechanism that produced the alternating layers of silt. Really? A couple of well know geologists disagree with you, since they found it rather inconsistent with your theory. Your theory doesn't agree with my theory, so your theory is wrong approach is not very scientific.
So what is the model to explain the over 4 million alternating layers of lighter and darker, finer and coarser silt? Again catstrophic events. Turbidity currents, etc.
Remember, the minimum time for the fine layer to form is a month. So regardless of anything else we are looking at not less than 333,333 years. That is not based on science but assumptions. As has been shown, experiments prove otherwise.
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
Sorry , wrong link. It can be found here:
H.P. Buchheim and R. Biaggi,”Laminae counts within a synchronous oil shale unit: a challenge to the “varve” concept’. Geological Society of America Abstracts with Programs 20:A317, 1988 Can't link it for obvious reasons. Edited by Creationist, : No reason given.
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
Sorry, we are looking at very fine sediment that stays in suspension unless the water is virtually still. But the water is still. Also, no one suggests that catastrophic events continue forever. They do stop and when they do, the silt settles.Experiments on Stratification of Heterogeneous Sand Mixtures | Answers in Genesis Edited by Creationist, : No reason given.
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
All you've proven is that you can't think outside the uniformitarian box. Nothing you have is any proof of what you believe. You believe it because you think the earth is old. None of the evidence you suggest really says that.
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
They can only settle on the bottom. That is what is so clear about this example. We have over 4,000,000 instances of a finer material being laid down followed by a slightly coarser layer then another finer layer, another coarser layer. Ok, so you have fine layer, course layer, fine layer, and coarse layer. And you are saying that the only way this could have settled down on the bottom is annually. There is no other way? Experiments have shown (I have linked these) that the same sedimentation layers are layed down quickly. It is based on the size of the grains. Bigger going to the bottom and smaller going to the top.
To get that fine a silt to settle out the water must be near still, followed by the more active flow to provide the slightly coarser layer, followed another quiescent period. Flood geology explains this perfectly. Strata - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
[qs]This is not sand but silt and we can deal with how to make silt after someone explains Thread How to make sand., but for now, you need to present the model that explains over 4 million layers of finer silt then coarser silt, lighter silt then darker silt.[qs]
I just did.
So lets look at your 4 million catastrophic events. No body said it took 4 million catastrophic events.
If it happened over the 6000 year period you have mentioned that is over 666 events a year, about two a day, every day right up through yesterday. Likely someone might have noticed. Again, Mount St. Helens produced 100 of the layers in one day. So it would not take nearly as many as you claim.
If it happened during the flood year it is about 11,000 repeating cycles a day or something over 450 such events every hour, more than seven every minute. No, events such as these combined with a world wide flood would be enough to produce most of what we see. Again, no one says that they don’t happen yearly. Just that all that we see did not happen yearly.
Now remember this is such fine silt that it will stay suspended unless the water is standing still for a considerable period of time. So once again, what is your model for the 4 million plus alternating layers of finer and coarser, lighter and darker material? Once again it can be done by a self sorting mechanism explained here, and in a Nature article. Silt is still made up of small particles and will eventually settle out.
Sedimentation Experiments: Nature Finally Catches Up!
| Answers in Genesis
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
And when that happens the densest particles will settle before the others of the same size and largest particle will settle before smaller ones of the same density. They will NOT form alternating bands of one and then the other.
Experiments on Stratification of Heterogeneous Sand Mixtures
| Answers in Genesis
All the diatoms will settle before 99% of the silt settles and you will NOT get alternating layers of diatoms and silt. You can't MAKE it happen. There is no way you can explain multiple layers of alternating density or alternating size in varves without multiple periods of settling. When some silts take days to settle you cannot create many layers in a year, even with optimum conditions, and you need to make thousands every day. Enjoy. Oh, I think it can be explained. http://www.creationinthecrossfire.org/.../VarvesProblems.htm
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
suggest you look at another interpretation. This from Glenn Morton: Garner makes it look as if secular geologists are coming to the conclusion that there are no varves in the Green River. This is not at all the case. Furthermore, Garner fails to honestly inform his readers that Buchheim's work is in Fossil Lake, the smallest of the ancient lakes and this is an important aspect of what the researchers observed. It is true that they observed more laminations near the shore than out in the lake's center. But they should have and that is what Garner fails to tell his readers. Fossil lake was about 18 miles long and 12 miles wide. It is found at the Utah/Wyoming border. Gosiute is found to the east of Fossil lake and was 200 miles in diameter. Here is what happens: A small rainfall would produce a small amount of sediment running into each of the lakes. The sediment settles out within a few miles from the shore. But since Fossil lake was so small, the storm laminae never settled out in the short 6 mile distance from shore. Thus Fossil lake would have annual layers plus storm layers. Storm runoff would affect the layer count preferentially nearer the shore. http://home.entouch.net/dmd/greenriver.htm Morton has a way of being loose with his facts. http://www.creationinthecrossfire.org/.../VarvesProblems.htm
quote: It would appear that your source prefers to count all laminations rather than just the varves. It is very difficult to determine what is a real varve and what isn’t. It is not exact. From the same source:
quote: That is exactly why we recommend that YECs not try to do this at home. Let the professionals handle this. And, of course, Michael Oard is a professional. Not that you could recognize one.
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
This is the best reasoning you've got? So tell us how this is different from your own position? What really makes your scenario better? Nothing makes my scenario better. It is another interpretation which you can’t seem to fathom.
I hate to rain on your parade, but the only reason we assume an old earth is that it has been verified again and again by previous work. And as YEC’s keep showing it is not verified again and again. Yelling louder does not make you right.
Don't you think it's time to move on? Sure, any time.
Or do also think that it's a bit dangerous to assume that the Wright brothers were correct? The Wright brother used real operational science that was proven out by experimentation. You haven’t.
Sorry C, but your arguments seem to be reaching. I hope so.
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
Please explain why you think that ash layers need to be separated evenly in time? Well, it is really quite simple. The two ash layers represent to different episodes in time. Two different eruptions. Now if the layers that are between them had been put down annually, then they ought to be consistent wouldn’t you think? They are not. They range from 1160 to 1568. http://www.creationinthecrossfire.org/.../VarvesProblems.htm
You are aware that fires happen at varied times throughout the year? If these ash layers represent volcanic eruptions (as I asume them to be), why do you conclude that these eruptions must be evenly spaced in time? Well, that’s the way most geologist see them. Maybe you should take that up with them.
Do you have information about this particular area and perhaps some references that would lead readers to conclude that volcanoes in that region are on a specific eruption schedule? No, but the two ash layers, being uniform as they are suggests that it was two different events in time. An ”event horizon’ I believe is the term used.
Names and quotes that show these two geologists believe it must be evenly spaced ash layers for the old earth model to be effective. See above.
It would also help if you explained why ash layers not evenly spaced has anything at all to do with support for a young earth? It doesn’t. Not necessarily anyway. What it does show is that these layers couldn’t possible be annual events.
You don't have a theory, you have an idea at best. You are mostly just displaying a lack of knowledge and arguments from incredulity. Thanks for the definition. I do indeed have a theory since it is testable. Uniformitarians, on the other hand, seem to be lacking.
You have apparently never heard of examples such as this: Tollund Man I have indeed heard of this. Yet, can you show an example of where it occurs with fish or birds? Experiments have shown that birds and fish don’t hold up to well. http://www.answersingenesis.org/.../v19/i3/greenriver.asp#f8
quote: Have you really never heard of things being preserved without predation or decay? Are you ignoring the obvious contradictions to your argument? You’re missing the point. Organic things don’t just lay on the ground for thousands of years without either decaying or being eaten by scavengers. Unless they have been buried quickly.
Or perhaps you are advocating a much much younger earth than most Yec's ... Dr.Adequate would be so proud. Even Younger Earth Creationism Not at all, but Dr. Adequate obviously doesn’t know any creationists.
You contradict yourself once again (In the same post no less): How so?
Your model is certainly supported by the Last Tuesday Model. I am sure Dr. Adequate would enjoy your support on his Even Younger thread. What a way to completely avoid the question.
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Creationist Member (Idle past 5676 days) Posts: 95 Joined: |
Tell us then, why we can show observations up to the limit of radiocarbon dating at 50ky? First of all, that is not an observation of 50000 years, but an inference of that time based on radiocarbon dating. Which itself is based on assumptions. Perhaps you can explain why traces of carbon can be found in diamonds.
Why is it such a bad assumption that processes were similar prior to that? Because there is no way to test it. Were you around 50000 years ago? Do you know anyone who was? Are there any eyewitnesses?
Why must they have occurred? Your word? You’re being kind of inconsistent in your uniformitarian views aren’t you? Do you really believe these layers could lay there for thousands of years and to not have been disturbed by either corrosion or, say, a storm?
Why is that? Do you really believe that a fossil will leave no traces? No traces? The fossils themselves are traces. No, the problem is that you have fossils at all.
What about foot prints? Do they break down also? Footprints are not organic. However, footprints are subject to erosion.
You have already been shown that Brethault is a fraud. I haven’t been shown any such thing. Perhaps you could elaborate.
Why do you keep going back to him? Is this all you’ve really got? Because it is a legitimate experiment that hasn’t been proven wrong.
Why not address my issues with the flume experiments? (Never mind, I actually know why) What is there to address? Nature did similar experiments and came up with the same results. http://www.answersingenesis.org/TJ/v11/i2/nature.asp
Maybe you should get a quote directly from them regarding their viewpoint on varves. Counting layers is not the same as counting varves. We have been over this before. Well, I cannot link the actual document, but here is one you might find interesting. http://www.creationinthecrossfire.org/.../VarvesProblems.htm
quote: Hey, you've convinced me! I doubt if any amount of evidence will convince you. You’re too engrained in your uniformitarian beliefs. Strong faith indeed.
Millions of them, eh? No, why would you think so?
What does the bible say about that? I don’t think the Bible talks about varves at all. But perhaps you should read it anyway. Because it is an eyewitness account. Written by Someone who claims to have been there.
You realize this makes you an uber-uniformitarian, don't you? Not sure what that is.
YOu seem to have a hard time with assumptions. Only, when they can’t be proven.
My question is, how do you get through life without making any assumptions? It has caused me difficulties in my life.
Well, if you want to take a quack's word for it, I suppose so. He hasn't convinced very many people, though. But you were easy, I guess. Well, at the moment, I’ll take his over yours. No offense.
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