What the H - Holmes is back!

Shhhhhhhhhhh...You know I was intending to just come back on silently and post a couple things (I needed some physics papers), maybe every once in a while...damn, sucked back in.Honestly though I don't know what my posting schedule will be like. I really can drop out for days or weeks I suppose. Don't want to scare people, or raise their hopes, unnecessarily.Anyway, it actually is nice to be back, and thanks for noticing, you too Archer.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

In an earlier post, in an out of the way thread, I noted something that probably goes better in here where more people will see it. And since I had troubles with you in the past, among others, this might be pertinent to your post here... To this I will add that I don't know what my posting schedule will be like. I may very well pop in and out at irregular intervals determined by some obscure probability function... now that I think about it I should probably have renamed myself Quantum H, or electrodynamic H.Anyway... While I disagree with your past description of my actions, I don't want to renew that debate. I really want to start fresh and am trying very carefully to avoid any appearance of that now.I totally apologize for the long posts which I just made recently. That is something I'm trying to end unless it is something I absolutely feel needs the length to work it out. The few long posts were accidents of my hitting submit instead of preview during my iterative process of chopping it down. In frustration, especially with our overlapping responses, I decided to leave them and move to the next post.So at the very least you should be seeing a decreased size of posts. I hope I can reach some level of communication where you don't feel my posts involve mischaracterization of your position.If you feel adequate communication has ended feel free to stop. I'd appreciate knowing what specific statement indicated a disrail, but you shouldn't feel obligated to waste time addressing me if I am talking past or through you. One of the biggest things standing against me now is time. I really don't have any to waste, and so when I feel a portion of debate has become pointless, I will end it from my side, with the appropriate bow out.Again, I hope this will be satisfactory.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Ah, but this wasn't a poorly executed attempt at aesthetics I was apologizing for, it was a poorly executed attempt at manual dexterity.That's an old-age challenge.Heheheh.Glad to see you're still here. Your powerful brevity is the dot I'd like to hit on the target.

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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Yes, and I'm glad to hear that my recent posts have been better. To be honest, while I sometimes think you need to increase your endurance to reading and understanding complex pieces, I take your comments to heart as completely valid about my writing style.Welllll... I wish you wouldn't compare me to 19th century German Philosophers... except maybe Nietszche. Have you seen 18th century non-German philosophers? Could it be like them?Personally though, I'd blame it on Lovecraft. I read his stuff way too much as a kid.Heheheh. I will continue to try and improve my style along the lines you suggest.

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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Unlike Faith, I was neither asked nor forced to leave because of bad behavior. I left because of a personal crisis, and have been gone for a year.My return was hesitant because time is very precious to me now, and this place is somewhat addictive. I have changed as a person, and am trying to change my communication style (even for non-EvC areas of my life). I'm cognizant that some people had issues with my posts in the past and am trying to be extra careful going forward.This may not guarantee that my posts will suddenly meet everyone's approval. I may still have people that don't like me or my writing. That could very well be you.However, I asked for a clean slate, and have treated everyone I might have had issues with civilly on that same idea. If I am to be judged it should be my current writings and not tied to anything in the past. If you want to "keep a record" start the clock from when I returned and present it to me with a concise discussion of what needs to be improved.I'm not going to be drawn into personal arguments anymore, which I'm sure will meet with everyone's approval. But that does make it annoying when a person repeats personal charges made in the past, after I just got done asking to let it go.A lot could be said from my side as well. But I can only imagine it was painful enough for everyone else back then to witness our wrangling... so why resurrect it? Especially at this juncture?Can we please agree to let go of past disputes, for the sake of civility and perhaps better times in the future?

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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Bear with me as I try to explain this through an anecdote.I was part of a project which fell apart due to personal issues. I felt I had been mistreated, and later so had another, and so on.Years later I met with someone from the project. While we had had problems with each other, we agreed to put the past behind us and talked. As I learned, after I had left pretty much everyone else had their own problems with each other. The whole project had descended into a terrible mess, beyond anything I could have imagined.In turn I met some others, and while I could get along with each one now, the rest couldn't stand talking with anyone else. The lingering hatred was thick... bordering on violent.Every person had their own version of what happened. They all differed and no one wanted to see it differently. And they even conflicted with my version of what had happened.This is the Rashomon effect.The only way I was able to get along with these people was by forgetting the past, and not trying to come to some conclusion about what happened... seeking answers for a mutually agreed plot line. I understood that they would always feel like what they thought happened, happened. So would I.And that didn't mean asking for, or giving, apologies. You can't have that if you both feel so fundamentally sure that your own version of events is the correct version of events.It required really forgetting the past and treating the person as someone new. Not mentioning what happened, especially if on feels "oh there the person goes again." It took biting one's tongue and trying to work on the immediate impasse as if it had no connection to anything else.I'm not trying to claim some guru status with this or something, just stating that this is the only practical method I found. And it worked.As far as you and I go, I don't want to discuss the past. I cannot explain myself to you, and you will never get an apology from me about it. And that's because I have no idea what you are talking about. It is so fundamentally different than what I believe is true about the past. I don't throw it in your face because I get that there's no way I could convince you of the facts (of my version), and I'm not saying that's your fault. It's just this frickin' Rashomon effect which can happen.So my suggestion is to let the past go. If you have a problem with something specific that I am saying, treat it as a communication error and attempt to fix it. Linking it to the past is only going to make me angry because of what I feel the past was really like.Also, we seem to have a communication problem anyway. I think our senses of humor and syntax throw each other off. Sometimes it feels like walking a tightrope or playing russian roulette saying anything to you... I'll be thinking everything's fine and the next second, wham! And I may just be talking about something innocuous. This is not to blame you, just to say I think misunderstandings come easier so it takes an extra effort to keep things flowing smoothly.From my perspective you tend to lace your arguments with personal insults, which I realize can just be a way of speaking and nothing is meant by it, but it just turns me off... especially right now in my life. I need things kept reasonably calm and without sharp edges. There is no need to talk about the other person... or if there is then it's better to just drop it altogether.Yeah so that makes me high maintenance. If you feel this is too much or you really need an explanation or apology about the past, all I can recommend is that you try not discussing things with me.I will not be getting into huge arguments with you, and preferably no one else, anymore. And I will simply cut off serious debate with someone until an even tone, without insult, is generated over a course of less serious conversation.If you have questions regarding my stance, and make them without insulting verbiage, I'll answer them.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

You are correct that, unlike Rashomon, the posts are all there for people to read. Unfortunately that was the same for the project I was discussing which is littered with paper trails and even video evidence. Everyone has a different take. Same here.What you claim to see, I am telling you is not true. What I see you doing, apparently you believe is not true and would tell me is not true. When others tell you that they have reviewed the stuff here and do not see it your way, you begin slandering them. It really isn't your way or wrong.I don't get why this happens, but it happens.If you feel debate has ended, then try to repair a specific miscommunication (without assuming, or talking like, your opponent is trying to do something bad), or just drop it. I'm not sure why that wouldn't make sense.And as to one of your comments I don't feel harried or chased around, and I'm not trying to pretend that here. I feel like there are some specific people with some very specific communication problems, and I'm not going to deal with it. If real debate is desired then simply discuss an issue, instead of a person.Its that simple.If we manage to have non-serious conversation without anger from your side, then I will begin to answer questions from you on serious subjects. Keep it related only to the arguments, and if you feel a mistake has been made, POLITELY correct the error. I do make mistakes and it doesn't help to suggest it is something intentional.I will be civil with you in turn (which means I will be polite, even if I feel angry about something). If I see a personal attack, then discussion will be dropped for another cycle.This is how I will be working from now on. This is the last I'm going to say about it.I hope we can be civil.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Just to let you know, I don't feel about everyone (or everyone I've disagreed with) as if they have communication problems. I get along with most people just fine. There are a few people I don't, that's it. And I don't take their comments seriously as I have my own idea of what they are doing when they make such accusations.But this is all besides the point. We'll see how it goes.

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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

I agree. It was very witty. Crash and a few others are great with sarcasm and the zappy zinger. I actually find them funny, even when dead wrong.But here's the problem... snappy insults are not useful communication. In fact it's contrary to good communication.Taking this specific zinger as an example... The claim of misrepresentation is an easy one to make, especially to get out of a debate one is losing. It's like "Abracadabra" now I am justified in NOT discussing the issue and turn it on YOU instead. It's a trick. That is not to say such claims are always false, but if it is true then the zinger isn't going to add anything.Let's say posters A and B are in debate, and B responds to a point which A claims is not their position. There are a few possibilities...1) B honestly misread A's post, and so was attacking an incorrect position.
2) B dishonestly (i.e. intentionally) misrepresented A's position in order to "score a point".
3) A dishonestly claims that B has misrepresented A's position in order to avoid embarrassment, or "score a point" of their own.
4) A honestly misread B's reply, and so is attacking an incorrect position of B'sI could detail it a bit further, but this is a usefully simplified version. It is practically impossible to tell between 1-4. And even if A or B does misrep in one instance, does not mean another case must be the same.Further, trying to establish 2 or 3 comes down to a he-said she-said ordeal which eats up space and time and energy.The most practical approach, and this works for misrep as well as mistake is to ASSUME an error has been made (so 1 or 4), and clearly restate a position without hostility.If the person you are communicating with continues personal attacks, after attempting to reset dialog with a clear understanding of each other's positions, then what's the point in continuing? Indeed that would seem an indicator the person is more interested in avoiding debate, and so probably a misrepper themselves.A person that continues hostile protestations way past any useful point, and into every new discussion, is also likely a misrepper. They need this as a tactic to throw off their debate opponent, and cover any personal retreat they may have to make.There is really no need for emotional responses. Either enjoyable and effective debate is occurring, or it is not. When it is not, and solid polite attempts to remedy a plausible honest error have failed, then stop talking to the person.I made a mistake recently trying to continue communication after an attempted reset, and started letting it get emotional. I will try harder to avoid that mistake in the future.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Yes, thank you for a good example.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

How ironic, I came back to announce I just got some news and was going to have to leave for a while... won't be able to finish current debates... and see this, alas! I was taking all the criticisms regarding the length of my posts to heart. I was told the length was an impediment to understanding.Attempts to prune my posts (and I would often start with longer offline versions) resulted in the barest bones of the argument... and perhaps more technical sounding. It is no longer in my normal writing "voice".Oh yes, and some of my changes also occurred after run ins with certain admins which left me confused as to what was valid or not. I tend to chop whole sections off for that.Once I came back I tried to stick with that mode and get still shorter. This was part of the reason for the name change and my announcement up thread people might not like my new style. It was an intentional experiment.I am sorry that this method (and hopefully it is just the method) has made my posts less clear or interesting. I happened to like your support. Perhaps when I come back from this next break... which may be a few months... I will start posting in my regular voice and say screw it with regard to length. At least I'll feel like I'm no longer posting through a straight jacket.Then again, that'll put me back in the dog house with some.See you around.Edited by Silent H, : -longer +versions

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Thank you buz. As I said often, I like you too... regardless of our positions on issues.As you pointed out I started with extremely long posts, which many complained about (and yet I also got many POTMs for). I have noticed that as I shortened my style (even before my long break) I received less POTMs.When I come back, I may very well be posting in long form again. However I'll make an exception just for you!... and maybe Flies.Read you later.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

...Edited by Silent H, : double post

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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Hello Molbio,As this is my last post for a while I considered cutting loose and posting in my original fashion. But really, you don't deserve it. I think you are a smart person who unfortunately does not take the time to apply your mind to a problem, including reading the material you quote for sources. This appears to be a boxing match for you, which is something I never enjoyed about certain posters.Also, you can't seem to take what you like to dish out.I realize I have my weaknesses as a writer. Apparently my experiment in brevity (I used to write like RAZD, but I tried to change to Archer's style) has failed, and I will attempt to correct my errors.I hope you will take my criticisms here to heart, and work on your own weaknesses. Ahem... Kuresu was talking to crash and was describing crash, not me. As ever, you need to check your citations.So long molbio, perhaps we'll meet again some sunny day.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Hi, and thanks for your well wishes. No it isn't bad news... I guess. Well sort of, then again no.Hahaha. The problem is that I've been put on some sort of rollercoaster which is enjoyable at times and terrifying at times... but at all times I am pretty damn busy trying to stay on the rollercoaster.Eventually (my guess is by late summer to mid fall) the ride will have ended. Then I can devote more time to proper debate. And that is the key. I just do not have specified nor consistent time for good debate right now. I suppose I may drop by for very quick questions (mainly to the physicists) or comments on recent events I think people might find interesting at EvC... like today.If/when I do return, I want to do so in the POTM award winning style I started with. So that'll suck for some, as it means longer posts where I have room to flesh out my position and arguments.To moose, I didn't take any offense. I'm just sad to hear I haven't been living up to my original standards. I hope when I get back, I'll do so.... or maybe buz is right and it is the fact that I've taken a bit more time challenging "our" side which has set an unusual tone for my posts. Someone accused my of being a gadfly once, and that may be true to some extent.To perc/admin... keep or close the thread. I don't take offense from it, though I do note its rare nature. It is useful for feedback from genuinely concerned readers (like moose)... who I really do take their criticisms seriously... and laughter at the rather sad posters coming to shoot me down with flimsy arrows pulled from their warped and wilted quivers.

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard