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Author Topic:   Entropy and the immutable law of death
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 40 of 83 (433020)
11-09-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by aviator79
10-16-2007 1:33 PM


misconception of entropy
I've read that Creationists used entropy to prove evolution false. They claim that since the 2nd law of thermodynamic says things tend to disorder, and evolution heads towards order, then evolution must be wrong. This is a view of someone who does not fully understand entropy.
Simply put, evolution is a system; the entropy in the UNIVERSE (system + surrounding), not system, is always either increasing or remains the same. So evolution (system) can become more ordered (decrease in entropy) given that the surrounding increases in entropy.
*NOTE: evolution is an open system* ie it reacts with the environment (surrounding).

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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 42 of 83 (433166)
11-10-2007 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
11-09-2007 3:36 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
It's true, evolution is not technically a system, it's a process like combustion or decomposition. I was trying to keep it simple.
Let me rephrase, the process of evolution takes place in an open system that can be decreased in entropy. There are a lot of chemistry reasons behind it, involving enthalpy, heat transfer, work, temperature and Gibbs free energy of spontaneity. But much to long and complicated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 11-09-2007 3:36 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 11-10-2007 12:51 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 43 of 83 (433171)
11-10-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
11-09-2007 3:36 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
2nd law does not apply to evolution
The laws of thermodynamics apply to everything physical, large or quantum. This is what makes it a law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 11-09-2007 3:36 PM crashfrog has replied

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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 46 of 83 (433448)
11-12-2007 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
11-10-2007 12:51 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
Combustion and decomposition are thermodynamic systems
They're not a system, they're processes...
combustion, a chemical process
Combustion
Processes do not have measurable quantities, systems do.
thermodynamic system are characterized by...pressure and volume, magnetic field and magnetic dipole moment, etc.
http://www.jgsee.kmutt.ac.th/exell/Thermo/Systems.html
Evolution comes from mutation, which can be explained by entropy and the laws of thermodynamics (and other laws such as conservation of mass, etc.) just as much as the rest of biology can be explained by chemistry.
A system can be anything, for example a piston, a solution in a test tube, a living organism, a planet, etc.
Thermodynamic system - Wikipedia
Since living organisms are systems, they can change in entropy.
Evolution is not a thermodynamic system
Yes, like I explained I was just keeping it simple:
It's true, evolution is not technically a system, it's a process like combustion or decomposition. I was trying to keep it simple.
Let me rephrase, the process of evolution takes place in an open system that can be decreased in entropy.
Evolution is a process in which they organism (system) can undergo change in entropy. Contrary to Creationist believes, it can decrease in entropy. This is possible because the surrounding balances the loss in entropy by the system, by increasing in entropy. The second law of thermodynamics states that only the universe (system + surrounding) must always increasing in entropy or remains the same and not the system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 11-10-2007 12:51 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 1:30 AM ChemEbeaver has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 48 of 83 (433450)
11-12-2007 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
11-10-2007 12:51 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
Quote from crashfrog:
Evolution [is]...not a process
A Process is a naturally occurring or designed sequence of changes of properties or attributes of an object or system
Process - Wikipedia
Evolution as a process
Page not found - OneLife
Evolution is a process
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html
Quote from crashfrog:
molecules break and form chemical bonds causing a net change in the total heat of the system
I assure you living organism (systems) always does this.
Evolution is the process, or change, living organisms undergo in genotype and (leading to change in) phenotype.
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : clarify quote origin

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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 49 of 83 (433451)
11-12-2007 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
11-12-2007 1:30 AM


Re: misconception of entropy
If combustion isn't thermodynamic, how do you explain the heat of the flame?
Energy (ie a match) is imputed into a system of fuel (ie gasoline) that increases the energy of the fuel past the activation energy of the fuel causing the process of combustion and generating energy (light, heat) as its product (and byproducts water CO2, CO, gasoline vapor etc).
simplified: gasoline = system. combustion = process the system undergoes

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 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 1:30 AM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 10:12 AM ChemEbeaver has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 53 of 83 (433612)
11-12-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by crashfrog
11-12-2007 10:12 AM


Re: misconception of entropy
Why don't you think that process is thermodynamic?
Where did I say that processes is not thermodynamic?

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 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 10:12 AM crashfrog has replied

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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 56 of 83 (433622)
11-12-2007 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Modulous
11-12-2007 11:20 AM


Re: misconception of entropy
A living organism doesn't evolve
Right A living organism doesn't evolve; the change comes from between parents and offspring over a long period of time. That's why I said living organismS instead of A living organism. I suppose it would be more correct using species instead, but we were using living organisms as the subject.
I assure you living organism (systems) always does this.
I was referring to cashfrog's comment:
molecules break and form chemical bonds causing a net change in the total heat of the system
I was saying that living organisms ARE systems, and therefore CAN undergo change in entropy.
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : typo
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : typo

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 Message 51 by Modulous, posted 11-12-2007 11:20 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 65 by Modulous, posted 11-13-2007 2:23 AM ChemEbeaver has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 61 of 83 (433820)
11-12-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
11-12-2007 5:34 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
This is getting nowhere. It doesn't seem like you have fully read my posts or fully understand it and it doesn't seem you know the definition of the terms system and process. This is going to be my last attempt.
-Evolution is not a system.
-Evolution is the process organism (system) undergoes.
-Combustion and decomposition are not systems; they do not have physical measurable quantities (ie temperature, pressure)
-Combustion and decomposition are processes.
If you take a look at my previous posts I have include quotes and reference links that clearly states these.
By the way, the ChemE in my sn stands for chemical engineering, and I am pretty familiar with systems and processes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 5:34 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 11:53 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 63 of 83 (433827)
11-13-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by crashfrog
11-12-2007 11:53 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
you're not paying attention and not addressing my posts
what am I not addressing?
So your a chemist? Then you should know your claims should have references to back them up. I have not seen any from you. Try googling "combustion."
Here’s my references again; this time I've include more than just a quote.
To move an airplane or a model rocket through the air, we must use a propulsion system to generate thrust. Different types of aircraft use different types of propulsion devices, but all aircraft rely on some type of engine to generate power. Rocket engines, internal combustion, or piston engines, and jet engines all depend on the burning of fuel to produce power. Burning a fuel is called combustion, a chemical process that we study in middle or high school.
Because combustion is so important for aircraft and rocket propulsion, we will review the fundamentals. Combustion is a chemical process in which a substance reacts rapidly with oxygen and gives off heat. The original substance is called the fuel, and the source of oxygen is called the oxidizer. The fuel can be a solid, liquid, or gas, although for airplane propulsion the fuel is usually a liquid. The oxidizer, likewise, could be a solid, liquid, or gas, but is usually a gas (air) for airplanes. For model rockets, a solid fuel and oxidizer is used.
Combustion
Evolution as a process is composed of two parts:
1. An organism reproducing mechanism that provides variable organisms. Changes to the organism are largely random and effect future generations. They are made without regard to consequences to the organism.
2. A changing environment which screens organism changes. The environment provides stress on the variable organisms that selectively allows, through competition, certain changes to become dominant and certain others to be eliminated, without consideration for the future of the mechanism. That same process provides mechanism (organism) disintegration if a strong screening environment is not present. Evolution is a two-way process which does not always work to the long term advantage of the organism and in fact often becomes quite deadly to a given species and thereby eradicates it.
The evolutionary process is bidirectional in its effect. It may, depending on the environment, either improve a given characteristic or decay it. Since the first step in the process is largely random and most organisms are quite complex, almost all of the variations are harmful. A characteristic of a species advances if the environment is harsh, since most harmful variations to that characteristic will be eliminated through death and suffering at a rapid rate, leaving only the inconsequential and helpful changes in the lineage. If the environment is benign with respect to the capability of the species then the harmful changes are not eliminated and the species will degenerate to a point of balance with the environment.
Page not found - OneLife
Here’s the dictionary definition of evolution:
ev”o”lu”tion /‘vlu‘n or, especially Brit., ‘iv-/
-noun
1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.
2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.
3. Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.
6. a pattern formed by or as if by a series of movements: the evolutions of a figure skater.
7. an evolving or giving off of gas, heat, etc.
8. Mathematics. the extraction of a root from a quantity. Compare involution (def. 8).
9. a movement or one of a series of movements of troops, ships, etc., as for disposition in order of battle or in line on parade.
10. any similar movement, esp. in close order drill.
Evolution Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

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 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 11:53 PM crashfrog has replied

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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 67 of 83 (433904)
11-13-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rrhain
11-13-2007 12:38 AM


Good job on a thorough explanation of the laws of thermodynamic Rrhain.
But I do not agree that entropy is not a measure of disorder. From a physics/engineering point of view it might not seem like it is, but from a chemistry point of view "disorder" is very important to entropy.
quote from Rrhain:
It depends upon the amount of energy available and the temperature at which the reaction takes place
Entropy also depends on the state of matter and the amount of molecules in the reactant and product.
Entropy increases by:
-going from solid -> liquid -> gas
-increasing in # of moles (ie 1 mole -> 2 moles)
Take water decomposing into hydrogen and oxygen gas:
H2O -> H2(g) + 1/2 O2(g)
This reaction would increase in entropy since liq->gas and 1 molecule->3/2 molecules.
However, this reaction is not spontaneous since:
-the energy required to break the H-O bond is much greater than what is available at room temperature
-water is at a much lower energy level (more stable) than H2 and O2
Using the combined law of thermodynamics:
dG = dH - TdS
the (+)increase in enthalpy is much greater than the (-)increase in entropy, making dG to be (+) and the reaction to not be spontaneous.
Contrary to its name, thermodynamics is more than about "heat" as heat is only one aspect of it. Thermodynamics is about energy. Molecules seek the most stable configuration at the lowest energy states which is why they favor disorder over order.

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 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2007 2:53 PM ChemEbeaver has replied
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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 69 of 83 (433912)
11-13-2007 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Modulous
11-13-2007 2:23 AM


Re: misconception of entropy
A process happens to a system, not a process happens to a population of systems over time
I disagree with that statement. I think a population can go though a process. And time is always included in a process (since nothing can change instantaneously).
But the definition of process is besides my point (have been a lot of sidetracking). My point is everything (even in nature) must obey the laws of thermodynamics and you can use chemistry to explain.
Here's a little proof I came up with:
-Everything in nature must obey the laws of thermodynamics.
-Everything changing in nature must obey the laws of thermodynamics.
-Evolution is a process of change in nature.
Therefore -> everything changing in nature must obey the laws of thermodynamics.
From a predator using energy to catch a prey, to the Krebs cycle breaking glucose to convert ADP to ATP, cell reproduction with mitosis, to DNA replication. All of these can be calculated and explained by chemistry and the laws of thermodynamics. Since evolution (can) involve these processes (there’s much more) you can take a step back and see the big picture that entropy of evolution can be calculated and that it must obey the law of thermodynamics.
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : typo

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 Message 65 by Modulous, posted 11-13-2007 2:23 AM Modulous has replied

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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 71 of 83 (433917)
11-13-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by crashfrog
11-13-2007 2:53 PM


quote from crashfrog:
H-O bond actually does break at room temperature, spontaneously, which is why pure water at 25 degrees C contains both hydronium ions (H3O+) and hydroxide ions (OH-)
H-O bonds do not break because of the energy in room temperature; there are other reasons for that, otherwise there would be a higher concentration of hydronium ions and hydroxide ions. Do a calculations for
2 H2O + H2 -> 2 H3O+ + 2 e-
and 2 H2O + 2 e- -> 2 OH- + H2
at 25oC and you'll see it's not spontaneous.
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : math calc error (2 electrons not 1)

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 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2007 2:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 11-13-2007 4:01 PM ChemEbeaver has replied
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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 73 of 83 (433925)
11-13-2007 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
11-13-2007 4:01 PM


quote from Ringo:
Since when do you have gaseous hydrogen in water at room temperature?
Always, its part of the atmosphere and although it’s not very soluble in water, there are still a few molecules. This goes for the other component of air: oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, argon, etc. (oxygen most soluble).
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : correction

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 Message 72 by ringo, posted 11-13-2007 4:01 PM ringo has replied

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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 6004 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 77 of 83 (434022)
11-14-2007 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
11-13-2007 4:31 PM


Yea I wrote it wrong. I think the correct reaction is:
H2O + H+ -> H3O+
H2O -> OH- + H+
= 2 H2O -> H3O+ + OH-

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 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-13-2007 4:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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