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Author | Topic: Divinity of Jesus | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
I'm taking a class on the New Testament writings”just an intro course”and I've been reading through some of the analysis provided by Bart Ehrman (New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, 3d ed.). Let me post some relevant parts here before proposing my question:
quote: Now, this last quote is important, because it leans toward the writings of John being false 'recollections' of what really happened. The effect this has is that it means most of the references of Jesus being God, and God's Son, and the Christ (a subject 'drilled home' in John, so to speak) suddenly become mute”or at least extremely quiet”, which leave us with the other parts, namely Jesus' ability "...to have performed miracles, to have calmed the storm and multiplied loaves, to have told the future and healed the sick, to have cast out demons and raised the dead, to have been supernaturally born and taken up into heaven at the end of their life." As Ehrman points out, people claimed to be able to do things like this weren't that uncommon, making Jesus just one of another many. Then, the later tradition that goes back to apply words to Jesus in John's Gospel must come from some where. What historical aspect of the Jesus situation could explain why he was deified into one with God? With so many prophets in the day, what about Jesus and his followers brought about the following cult? There's been a lot of people since then who have been highly-regarded; why didn't they get a super-mega religion named after them? For this post, I'd just like to say that I want to focus on the historical aspects behind this matter, and not the supernatural ones”so no posts saying 'Jesus really was God, that's why'. We must assume that there is a reasonable, realistic, real-world and non-supernatural-invoking answer to this question. Jon Edited by AdminModulous, : title change : divination->divinity Edited by Jon, : Removed message to admins. In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium
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AdminModulous Administrator Posts: 897 Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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pbee Member (Idle past 6057 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
Long before Jesus arrived, the scriptures prophesied the coming of the Messiah. Prophets who lived prior to that time foretold many details that would help others to identify him clearly.
Two outstanding example can be observed when 700 years earlier, a prophet(Micah) foretold that the promised one would originate in the small town of Bethlehem in the land of Judah(Micah 5:2). Secondly, many centuries earlier, a prophecy recorded in (Daniel 9:25) pointed to the exact year when the Messiah was to arrive(29 CE). The fulfillment of these prophecies proved that Jesus was indeed the messiah. Further proof that Jesus was the Messiah came near the end of 29 CE. It was the year that Jesus went to John the Baptizer to get baptized. It was promised to John that he would identify the messiah and John saw that sign at Jesus’ baptism. The scriptures also say that after Jesus was baptized that the heavens were opened up, and John saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him and a voice from the heavens told him that Jesus was hi son(Matthew 3:16, 17). After seeing and hearing this, John had no doubt that Jesus was the messiah(John 1:32-34). The fulfillment of Bible prophecies showed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. Furthermore, while it remains true that others performed miracles in that day, Jesus was the only one who effectively died for mankind.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Admins--I think this topic is in the wrong area?? Maybe it should be in Comparitive Religions, or in Inerrancy??
The question for Bible Study is "What does the Bible really mean?" But the OP is opposed to this:
quote: Ehrman's position is that the Bible says (and means) that Jesus is God, but that the Bible is incorrect on these issues. His concern is not biblical interpretation (the subject of the Bible Study forum), but biblical origins. And he a-priori constrains these origins to be non-supernatural, which is in essence an a-priori disagreement with much of what the Bible clearly says and means. BTW, for anyone reading Ehrman's more popular book "Misquoting Jesus", I would also recommend reading this book: "Misquoting Truth: A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus"" by Timothy Paul Jones.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
pbee
Two outstanding example can be observed when 700 years earlier, a prophet(Micah) foretold that the promised one would originate in the small town of Bethlehem in the land of Judah(Micah 5:2). Secondly, many centuries earlier, a prophecy recorded in (Daniel 9:25) pointed to the exact year when the Messiah was to arrive(29 CE). The fulfillment of these prophecies proved that Jesus was indeed the messiah. let us check on those verses shall we? In Micah the verse is as follows
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting. Here we can see that the reference to Bethlehem states that the person coming out of Bethlehem shall, by the terms outlined in the prophecy, be ruler in Israel which,of course, Jesus never became. As for the second verse,Daniel 9:25.
Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Could you explain which restoration and building of Jerusalem is referenced in the verse and what records you use in order to determine that it occurred? Indeed could you explain how many weeks are actually supposed to occur before his arrival { seven or threescore and two weeks {62 weeks} or do we sum them and arrive at 69 weeks?}
Further proof that Jesus was the Messiah came near the end of 29 CE. It was the year that Jesus went to John the Baptizer to get baptized. It was promised to John that he would identify the messiah and John saw that sign at Jesus’ baptism. Let us take a look at the verses pertaining to this shall we?
In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. Now perhaps you could point out where he was promised that he would identify the Messiah? If you are referring to the prophet Esaias I cannot find him saying this. Indeed, it is convenient that the first time that Esaias is mentioned starts in Matthew. Not once in all the preceding books of the Bible is this prophet mentioned. So here we have an example of a self fulfilling storyline that fills in the needed authority figures in a bid to further lend credence to their beliefs.
The scriptures also say that after Jesus was baptized that the heavens were opened up, and John saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him and a voice from the heavens told him that Jesus was hi son(Matthew 3:16, 17). After seeing and hearing this, John had no doubt that Jesus was the messiah(John 1:32-34). How is this anything more than opinion on the part of John the baptist? Oddly enough this is only witnessed by John and no other yet is taken at face value as undeniable. Why is this?
The fulfillment of Bible prophecies showed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. Furthermore, while it remains true that others performed miracles in that day, Jesus was the only one who effectively died for mankind. You will have to do far better than this to even begin to make a case for your position pbee. Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Unlike the others here I am going to try to answer the question.
Any answer has to be speculative because we have very little trustworthy information form the critical time period. We must deal with the implications of the surviving works more than their contents. In my view Jesus put himself forward as the Messiah. Clearly he failed. He did not reestablish the Davidic kingdom - the Romans caught him and killed him as a rebel. A hard core of his movement refused to accept the destruction of their hopes. They clung to the idea that Jesus was still alive in some way. Maybe they thought they "saw" him as more recently people have "see" Elvis after his death. Maybe they had dreams or even visions of the dead Jesus. But the idea grew that Jesus would return and fulfil the prophecies he had failed to fulfil in life. It is likely at this point that they began to identify Jesus with Daniel's "Son of Man" (who appears to be an angelic or even divine figure). Paul took it further. He hadn't met Jesus, all he had was a vision. And his idea of Christianity (then a Jewish sect) was at odds with that of the disciples. Paul says very little about Jesus' life or even his teachings in life. He is almost entirely focussed on the Jesus of his visions. Paul also took his teachings to the gentiles. The gentiles would be more receptive to the idea of God having a literal son. Ideas that Jews would take as metaphorical could be taken literally among the gentile community which came to dominate Christianity. I am not sure, however, that that is what John had in mind. John's idea of the Logos seems to be based on the Jewish concept of Sophia ("Wisdom"). The different name may be simply because Sophia is conceived as as feminine. From Proverbs 8
23"From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. 24"When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. 25"(AJ)Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; 26While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. 27"When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, 28When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Thus the deified Jesus may be seen as a co-option of the Jewish Sophia, seen through a lens of pagan belief in demigods and heroes.
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AdminModulous Administrator Posts: 897 Joined: |
The question for Bible Study is "What does the Bible really mean?" But the OP is opposed to this: Actually the question for Bible Study is "What does the Bible really mean?". Does the Bible really mean to imply that Jesus is Divine, or is that just John? Why did Jesus get picked out of the crowd of messianic type figures? It could fit into the inerrancy forum, but I don't think that Bible Study is a mis-classification. I'm not sure that there is a forum that someone wouldn't consider ill-fitting in some way. New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073]
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pbee Member (Idle past 6057 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
quote: Due to the scope of your questions, I will address them one at a time. As one of God's prophets Micah(meaning who is like God) was specifically chosen for foretelling the birth of Christ(Mic. 5:2). After foretelling Jesus’ birth Micah added in (Mic. 5:4, 5) that Jesus would stand and do shepherding in the strength of God, in the superiority of the name of YHWH his God and that they would keep dwelling, and that he(Jesus) would be great as far as the ends of the earth. And this one must become peace. - In prophesying the experiences of the remnant of the little flock of Jesus’ spiritual sheep, Micah, wrote " Jacob shall be completely gathered with all his people, I will surely receive the remnant of Israel, I will cause them to return together, as sheep in trouble, as a flock in the midst of their fold, they shall rush forth from among men through the breach made before them(Mic. 2:12). the prophecy refers to Jesus as the one whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite. So that birth in Bethlehem was not the start of him since Jesus' was described as the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of the creation by God(Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14). There was no earlier time for creation’s beginning than the creation of this only-begotten Son of God. Though no dates are given in the scriptures, it would remain in the indefinite, so the son of God who was to become *ruler in Israel from the days of time indefinite. To understand the prophecy in Micah, we must keep in mind that Jacob and Israel are the names of one and the same organization, since God surnamed the patriarch Jacob Israel(meaning contender or Perseverer with God)(Gen. 32:28) It is quite obvious that the remaining ones(Jacob or Israel) whom God promised to gather like sheep were to be collected in favor of the Ruler who was to be born in Bethlehem and become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, and days of time indefinite. Consequently, the prophecy of (Micah 2:12) applies to the Christian congregation of the Israel of God(spiritual Israel) (Gal. 6:16) Another identifying factor depicting who this Israel of God really is can be found in (Isaiah 43:1, 10), where God addresses Jacob or Israel saying that God created Jacob, and formed Israel. In verse 12, God repeats the identification of who Jacob or Israel saying the Israel of God.
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
"Jon" writes:
Well, all right, then, I can think of one "historical aspect of the Jesus situation" not often attribued to his alleged diety. Maybe it was because he had only haploid genotypes, with his physical alleles coming only from his mother, since his Father had none materially to give him, owing to the Biblical fact that Jesus was spawned by Immaculate Conception. What historical aspect of the Jesus situation could explain why he was deified into one with God?...I'd just like to say that I want to focus on the historical aspects behind this matter, and not the supernatural ones.. Hard to imagine what Jesus could have done for humanity if he had been a diploid male. ”HM
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pbee Member (Idle past 6057 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
quote: God restored his kingdom in an untypical way. He set up the kingdom in the hands of Jesus, who, when he was a man on earth, was a descendant of King David. Additionally, since Christ is no longer a man and now resurrected to a spirit life, God set up the kingdom of this Descendant of King David in what is called the heavenly Jerusalem(Matthew 1:1) (1 Peter 3:18) (Hebrews 12:22). That is why the birth of the Messianic kingdom in 1914 CE. was not visible to the political rulers. Yet the birth was on time, and the effects were felt in both in heaven and on earth.
quote:Describing Paul's encounter as "all he had" is a pretty pathetic attempt at downplaying the events which took place on the road to Damascus. The fact that Jesus appeared to Saul/Paul in a blinding light, and announced himself as the Messiah is a major event. Some depictions by artists show Saul falling from a horse however, the scriptures say that he fell to the ground(Acts 22:6-11). Whatever the case Saul experienced was not nearly so great as the fall his pride took. He now had to face the fact that what Jesus’ followers were preaching was indeed true. His only course, was to join them. After regaining his sight and getting baptized, Saul who became Paul kept on acquiring knowledge and proved logically who Christ actually was(Acts 9:22).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Not doing it is hardly "doing it in an untypical way". There is no restored kingdom of Israel. Israel was only reestablished as a state 60 years ago and Jesus had nothing to do with it and is not recognised as even a constitutional monarch.
quote: Jesus probably WASN'T a descendant of David, and isn't King of Israel. He STILL hasn't fulfilled the real Messianic prophecies.
quote: So you're a Jehovah's Witness. Well thanks for demonstrating my point. People make up all sorts of excuses to deal with failed prophecies. So my hypothesis that some of Jesus' followers did the same thing rather than admit to the failure of they're Faith is shown to be reasonable and in line with human nature. Arguing that the prophecies were fulfilled in a way that NOBODY COULD NOTICE is exactly the sort of ploy that the disciples might have used.
quote:If he wanted to argue against the words of people who actually knew Jesus in life it isn't much. I'm not downplaying it. I'm pointing out the fact that it isn't as good as actually knowing Jesus in life. Not if he wants to claim authority for his teachings. Now if you want pathetic your attempt to claim that Jesus is King of Israel only nobody can actually see it. is as pathetic as it gets.
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pbee Member (Idle past 6057 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
quote:Don't get mad but the scriptures say otherwise. There is more on Jesus' position towards Israel in this post. quote:*Probably doesn't cut it. quote:Please don't patronize me such sore attempts at religious discrimination. You 'll do fine keeping such things to yourself. The world is filled with religious enterprises and followers who each and all believe they are the ones(just as do). In short, try not to be petty and let your emotions get the best of you. Your beliefs are of your own, and I for one have no interest in convincing you otherwise. However, this does not mean you can post whatever you like without facing oppositions either. So deal with it.
quote:Right, the Jesus in his heavenly form was a lesser vessel because.... These are nothing but excuses to justify ones beliefs(no more no less).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Don't get mad, but they don't. The Kingdom of Israel is gone. The Lost Tribes are gone. THe messianic prophecies remain unfulfilled.
quote: Probably is a lot better "probably not" which is what you have. I guess in our world "probably false" means "definitely true".
quote: So telling the truth about your religion is "discrimination" now ? The fact that your religion has a long record of failed prophecies is something that everyone should "keep to themselves" ? I am sorry that you find the truth offensive but I'm afraid that that is your problem. If you want a forum where facts embarrassing to the Jehovah's Witnesses are censored you'll have to stick to JW-controlled fora.
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pbee Member (Idle past 6057 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
Despite your attempts to try and gain some sort of authority, I do not have a religion or motives. Nor have I ever served under any religious enterprise or label. So your own your own with your childish endeavors.
Additionally, this is the first and last time I will address such issues(enjoy it).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote:MY attempts to gain authority ? You're the one demanding censorship. I'm just telliing you that you can't have it. And I'd say that your explicit endorsement of JW doctrine as well as your use of slander to try to silence criticism of the JWs clearly indicates that you are a Jehovah's Witness. So denying that you have a religion is not exactly convincing. As for childishness you;re the one throwing a fit and storming off because he can't have his way.
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