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Author | Topic: God caused or uncaused? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
If you're going to put options on the table, get them out there.
Rob: Assuming the existence of God for a moment, what are our options on this issue? 1. God is uncaused 2. God is caused. 3. Both of the above. 4. Neither of the above. 5. You can't know. (Keeping in mind that the initial assumption is exactly that.) Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Rob: C.S. Lewis gave a simmilar illustration to yours, but not about time but God himself. He said that if our life is a line on a sheet, then God would be the whole page. But even then he cautiously reminds us that it is only meant to help, it cannot capture the infinite nature of God. God is not a page, He is a book. And even then we're dealing with only one chapter of His reality that relates to this particular part of the story as he relates to us. In the end, there is no end. In the end, there is no book.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Rob: there is ultimately nothing emperical about 'empericism' other than it's correct inference to logic (ie. philosophical coherence).
Two goofs. 1. Reliance on quantifiable sensory data is also an identifying feature of empiricism. 2. Logical coherence is mathematical, not "philosophical," in nature. Archer All species are transitional.
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5226 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Rob,
Logic wasn't created by God. Logic is God. Reality (God) is logical. You have no evidence of this, you just assert it.
I have a friend. His name is reality. He loves His son. The son's name is logic. and logic never lies And like I've said before, logic does lie, logically valid arguments can be wrong, & invalid ones right, so not even another baseless assertion, an assertion contradicted by evidence.
I never said logic was made. I am saying that it is uncaused (ie. not made). I'm saying logic was made, & with as much veracity as you, ie. none, this is why what YOU say isn't evidence. Like you said, "could have" doesn't cut it. Is this it, no evidence of god whatsoever, just vacuous assertions? Mark Edited by mark24, : No reason given. Edited by mark24, : No reason given. There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Archer:
Two goofs. 1. Reliance on quantifiable sensory data is also an identifying feature of empiricism. 2. Logical coherence is mathematical, not "philosophical," in nature. mark and I already went round and round with this. Quantifiable? ie. mathematical? Well of course... one cannot rely on his senses to tell him his senses are valid. It must be tested by good reasoning (ie. mathematical / logical thinking). What is philosophy? It is applied logic. applied logic | Fallacies, Varieties, & Facts | Britannica So, good philosophy is simply mathematical observation and testing of an idea. All of the above is dependent on the validity of the law of non-contradiction (ie. logic). Call it math, call it philosophy, call it sensory. The point is we are all seeking logical (philosophical) coherence between the physical world, our experiences of it, and logic. Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
mark24:
And like I've said before, logic does lie, logically valid arguments can be wrong, & invalid ones right, so not even another baseless assertion, an assertion contradicted by evidence. Who said a lie is logical? It is only internally coherent. You and I have already agreed that we must have internal and external coherence. It is a complete picture that is ultimately and totally logical. Why do we even have to rehash this? mark24: I'm saying logic was made, & with as much veracity as you, ie. none, this is why what YOU say isn't evidence. Like you said, "could have" doesn't cut it. Here is the question... and it is my response to jar as well: Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole? Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: The point is we are all seeking logical (philosophical) coherence between the physical world, our experiences of it, and logic. But the topic is God, not the physical world. It doesn't matter how coherent your philosophy is with your physical observations. There are no physical observations of God, so your ideas of God can only cohere with themselves. The part of your philosophy that concerns God can have no coherence with your physical observations. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Ringo:
But the topic is God, not the physical world. The physical world is logical. It is governed by elegant mathematical laws. They have been tested. So our only salvation is logic. It is the only light we have with wich to understand anything. It is our primary reasoning process. Do we have faith that it is valid or not? Where do we place our faith? As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord who is a man of His Word (logos ie. logic).
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Rob
You're missing the point mark... Logic wasn't created by God. Logic is God. Reality (God) is logical. Is there a logical reason why God exists? "The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss." Thomas Carlyle
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5226 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Rob,
Who said a lie is logical? Not me, I said logic can lie, in contradiction to you saying it couldn't.
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole? Not necessarily. My great-grandmother lived until she was 93, she smoked cigarettes like a trooper all her life. She lived well beyond the average life expectancy. Smoking is therefore good for you. There you have & internal & external test cohere, it is valid logic, & it is also wrong. Your point? Back on topic, my point is that you have nothing that meets the standard of "matching the external test". This is called evidence, please provide some. Mark Edited by mark24, : No reason given. There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
sidelined
Is there a logical reason why God exists? There must be, but since logic is infinite, we cannot have absolute comprehensive understanding of Him. So we either choose to trust Him, or not.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: So our only salvation is logic. It is the only light we have with wich to understand anything. It is our primary reasoning process. Do we have faith that it is valid or not? "Faith in logic" be damned. You still can't use logic to connect what is observable with what is unobservable. There is no possibility of coherence there. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
mark24:
My great-grandmother lived until she was 93, she smoked cigarettes like a trooper all her life. She lived well beyond the average life expectancy. Smoking is therefore good for you. There you have & internal & external test cohere, it is valid logic, & it is also wrong. Your point? That doesn't tell you how long she would have lived without smoking...
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Ringo:
You still can't use logic to connect what is observable with what is unobservable. There is no possibility of coherence there. I'm talking about logic itself Ringo... Can you not see HIm?
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