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Author Topic:   God caused or uncaused?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 211 of 297 (418084)
08-26-2007 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:30 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob
sidelined writes:
Is there a logical reason why God exists?
Rob writes:
There must be, but since logic is infinite, we cannot have absolute comprehensive understanding of Him.
Then Logic is greater than, not the same as, God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:30 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:37 AM sidelined has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 212 of 297 (418085)
08-26-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:16 AM


Who cares?
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole?
Who cares? In this issue it is irrelevant and unimportant.
The question of whether God is caused or uncaused is irrelevant and unimportant as I pointed out in Message 194.
Since we are of this universe, speculating about things that are unrelated to this universe, untestable and unobservable is just plain silly. In the case of the topic of this thread, which in case you have forgotten is "God caused or uncaused?", there is no observable external evidence of God.
Equally valid arguments could be made for either position. I can state an axiom that God is uncaused, or an axiom that God is caused, and we can then develop a series of statements of consequences based on either of those axioms, but nether axiom is proven true, it is simply assumed to be true for the sake of the argument.
You seem to forget the basic Construct.
If God exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that It does not exist.
If God does not exist, then It does not exist regardless of all the evidence She does exist.
Edited by jar, : change the to then

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:16 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:41 AM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 213 of 297 (418086)
08-26-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by sidelined
08-26-2007 10:35 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
sidlined:
Then Logic is greater than, not the same as, God.
No, it's just who God is. Good and complete. Love, harmony, order... coherence.
Can logic be greater than logic? Is the Father greater than the Son?
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 10:35 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 10:59 AM Rob has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 214 of 297 (418088)
08-26-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:35 AM


Rob writes:
I'm talking about logic itself Ringo...
Can you not see HIm?
Nobody can see Him.
If people think they see evidence of Him in the physical world, that evidence can fit into their coherent philosophy package. But there can never be a coherent connection to Him.
You can find all the fingerprints you want, but you can't identify them as His fingerprints because He isn't in the database.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:35 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 215 of 297 (418089)
08-26-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by jar
08-26-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Who cares?
jar:
Who cares? In this issue it is irrelevant and unimportant.
That remains to be seen. We're having a conversation. This is not a dictatorship.
Please answer the question:
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 10:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 10:59 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 216 of 297 (418090)
08-26-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by ringo
08-26-2007 10:41 AM


Ringo:
Nobody can see Him.
If people think they see evidence of Him in the physical world, that evidence can fit into their coherent philosophy package. But there can never be a coherent connection to Him.
Nobody can see logic?
Then could Einstien see that E=MC2 (what is the code for that little square 2)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:54 AM Rob has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 217 of 297 (418092)
08-26-2007 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:34 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob,
That doesn't tell you how long she would have lived without smoking...
That's neither here nor there, that she lived well beyond the average life expectancy is an observation, the inferrred conclusion is that it was the smoking that did it & that smoking is therefore good for you. The point is that as it stands it is a logically valid syllogism, & it is false.
Logical coherence doesn't have to = truth. Sorry, but it doesn't.
Now, we agreed the terms of this discusssion, so quit stalling & provide evidence of god, please.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:34 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:59 AM mark24 has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 218 of 297 (418093)
08-26-2007 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:43 AM


Rob writes:
Nobody can see logic?
I said nobody can see Him, i.e. God. Your notion that God = logic is not a given here.
Then could Einstien see that E=MC2 (what is the code for that little square 2)
Einstein could see that E = mc2. That's a mathematical representation of a physical phenomenon.
If God is supposedly non-physical - i.e. supernatural - He can never be observed in the physical world and any connection between Him and the physical world can not be made logically.
(Use <sup> for superscripts.)

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:43 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:08 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 219 of 297 (418094)
08-26-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by mark24
08-26-2007 10:51 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
mark24:
That's neither here nor there, that she lived well beyond the average life expectancy is an observation, the inferrred conclusion is that it was the smoking that did it & that smoking is therefore good for you.
So what about her neighbor who lived beyond the average life expectancy and didn't smoke?
Kind of a small sample size isn't it?
mark24:
Logical coherence doesn't have to = truth. Sorry, but it doesn't.
Yes it does. Otherwise there is no truth for us to believe in like the TOE. But there is other information that we are unaware of, to resolve the difficulties of certain cases (ie. your grandmothers genetic predisposition as well as other enviromental factors).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 10:51 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:14 AM Rob has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 220 of 297 (418095)
08-26-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:41 AM


Re: Who cares?
That remains to be seen. We're having a conversation. This is not a dictatorship.
Please answer the question:
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole?
If you will read Message 212 you will see that I not only answered that question but provided the reasoning behind it.
The question of whether God is caused or uncaused is irrelevant and unimportant as I pointed out in Request denied. (Message 194).
Since we are of this universe, speculating about things that are unrelated to this universe, untestable and unobservable is just plain silly. In the case of the topic of this thread, which in case you have forgotten is "God caused or uncaused?", there is no observable external evidence of God.
Equally valid arguments could be made for either position. I can state an axiom that God is uncaused, or an axiom that God is caused, and we can then develop a series of statements of consequences based on either of those axioms, but nether axiom is proven true, it is simply assumed to be true for the sake of the argument.
You seem to forget the basic Construct.
If God exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that It does not exist.
If God does not exist, then It does not exist regardless of all the evidence She does exist.
If you want, you can state either position as axiomatic, and we could then discuss the consequences of that position. However, the starting assumption is still not proven, simply accepted for the sole instance of the discussion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:41 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:02 AM jar has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 221 of 297 (418096)
08-26-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob
Let us encapsulate what has been discussed in the few posts of ours?
Your post #184 where you said
Rob writes:
You're missing the point mark... Logic wasn't created by God. Logic is God. Reality (God) is logical.
My reply in # 205
sidelined writes:
Is there a logical reason why God exists?
Then #207 from you
Rob writes:
There must be, but since logic is infinite, we cannot have absolute comprehensive understanding of Him.
Now you say
Rob writes:
No, it's just who God is. Good and complete. Love, harmony, order... coherence.
You agreed in #207 that there must be a logical reason for God. Logic then must then restrain God in his actions therefore is greater than God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:37 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:05 AM sidelined has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 222 of 297 (418097)
08-26-2007 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by jar
08-26-2007 10:59 AM


Re: Who cares?
Yes or no.
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole?
ie. is science valid?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:23 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 223 of 297 (418098)
08-26-2007 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by sidelined
08-26-2007 10:59 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Sidelined:
You agreed in #207 that there must be a logical reason for God. Logic then must then restrain God in his actions therefore is greater than God.
Are yo saying that logic is self control?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 10:59 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 12:24 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 224 of 297 (418099)
08-26-2007 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by ringo
08-26-2007 10:54 AM


Ringo:
I said nobody can see Him, i.e. God. Your notion that God = logic is not a given here.
Well you flew right over my point then... without discussing it.
If logic is not God, then why do you presume the scientific method to be our only salvation?
The whole venture of science is only valid if the notions (as you put it) are legitimate.
We certainly have faith that they are...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:17 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 225 of 297 (418101)
08-26-2007 11:13 AM


The joy of it all...
The irony and mysteriousness of the fact that there are four or five guys here, using logic to deny or question logic is almost too much for me to handle.
Do we have faith in it or not?
Oh the joy of it all.

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