Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

PD, I have to ask. How is choosing to follow God's commands in anyway different from giving up control of our own lives?Think about it. We are going to have free will. Jesus never took away free will. But if we freely decide to follow God's commands, we are freely choosing to do the right thing even when we don't want to. You may not call this surrender. I simply can't see what then would be considered surrender. God is not making us slaves. We are making ourselves slaves to God. In all of scripture, there are moments when God made a person 'surrender'. Look at Paul. He was without his own control brought under the influence of a vision. The same is true of mystic saints. Yet, after these moments of ecstacy, the mystics will teach that all that is required for God to work in one is willingness. This is evidenced in the angel's words to Mary.The question is, after such profound life-changing moments, can one truly NOT choose to follow God? Are they 'forced' by transports beyond our experience, or are they 'wiiling', or both?I know that is slightly off topic. I want to only ask that for all practical purposes, how one could distinguish between surrender to God, and 'doing good'? Tell me what a person who has surrendered themselves IS doing if not following God? Are they controlling themselves, or is God? Maybe Jesus never said 'give up control' but He said 'follow me'. What is the difference really? If I look at two people, how can I tell who has given up control of their will, and who is merely doing good works?If this is rambling forgive me, but I truly do not the see issue here. In the garden of Gethsemane, didn't Jesus say 'Father, not my will be done, but thine'? How is this not surrender? How is 'into thy hands I commend my spirit' not surrender? What are the characteristics of a person who 'gives control to God'? IMO they are the exact same ones as those possessed by people who are freely choosing to follow God.Stile said before that a Christian gives control of his morality over to God or 'chance'. Yet the morals of a Christian are the exact same ones even if you strip the God part out. Love of neighbor is still love of neighbor. Surrendering to good advice, doing God's will, following Jesus, etc...it's all semantics. It's all the same in application. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

I hear you truthlover. This is one time that I am going to have to say I don't agree with PD's conclusion. For the most part I enjoy looking passage to passage for deeper understanding, but this is not something that can be solved Biblically. It is up to the individual to decide if 'following' means surrendering. I think there is ample evidence that giving up one's own desires was recommended by Jesus.In all reality and all practicality, if I were to desire an inappropriate action, and gave this up because of love for God, I would have surrendered. I have surrendered to what I see as better. Is this really surrender? Is this not just doing what I would have done anyway? If you think along these lines you end up with Doddy's 'we can do what we please, but we can't change what pleases us to do'. This means that I will gain pleasure from following Jesus. Even when there is pain there is pleasure. It is not an easy thing to answer or explain. Perhaps the simple feeling of gain from doing the will of God implies that a person has already surrendered. They have already chosen to follow the doctor's orders, because they believe in the validity of the prescription. The only person who has 'given up control of their lives' is the one who does not follow the doctor's orders. They will 'rebel' whether they are lost or saved in body. They will rebel just because they can. If this is 'freedom' what is the opposite?Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

To an extent. To an extent. Ditto. It is, entirely. If all of the above deal only with certain portions of life, following God is giving up control entirely. it is giving up the freedom to do what you want ALL the time.

Well, that is the paradox isn't it? None of us is going to be perfect, none of us is always going to want to do the right thing. Feel like it, that is. Yet, the higher our degree of surrender to the will of God, the more we will desire to do what is right even when we don't feel like it.Use your doctor analogy. Use the 12 steps program; You already know that a person has to admit they are wrong. Next step, surrender mentally to the right way. Give up your 'own' way. Understanding comes first, surrender second. I am not at all sure that looking for clues that Paul wanted to kill Christians while he preached Christianity is a good use of time, but there is plenty of reason to believe Paul stiil wanted to live as the 'old man'. Or, at least, that he knew of the temptation to do so. The vast body of his discourses have to do with combatting the desires of the flesh. When a person has completely surrendered, the way of the conquerer becomes his way. It doesn't matter if he be willing or not. The point of spirituality is to get to the place where you are in agreement with the conqueror even when you don't understand him. You live as he pleases. Surrender has nothing to do with wanting, save for wanting to surrender. That is the only thing that God will not control. How many of these people can you find? Who naturally wants to do what is right? If a person gets so lucky as to have this state of mind, doesn't that mean that they have already found God?Maybe some of the language used in religion has gone poetic or harsh sounding. I still would not say that you have made a case that is strong enough for me to believe that following God is not allowing him to control a life. It is not forcible control that is true, but the whole concept of surrender is IMO entirely Biblical.

I am still looking for this practical example of what a person who has 'given up control' of their lives will look like. In relation to God that is, not a physical ruler.

double postEdited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Well then, yes, I think being Christian requires turning control of our lives over to God.Jesus thinks so.Paul thinks so.Following God is notbing more complicated than doing what is right or what you feel God asks, as fas as this is discernable, and as frequently as possinle. We are surrendering to what we believe is the will of God. There is no 'control' and there never has been. God does not take possession of our bodies against our will. It's a willing surrender, an aquiescence, an obeying of the voice of the conscience. I definitely believe that God requires it, and that we can not be Christian any other way.

Well, if it is required to choose one thing, it isn't much of a choice is it? You can choose to surrender. Once you have, you essentially give up control. It isn't taken from you, you give it up.

That's what I have been asking you. I can't distinguish on a mental level or a physical level what the difference is between 'giving up control to God's will, and 'choosing to follow Jesus'.

In 'Christianity' you already know that following your own way is futile. The first step to success is understanding that you will ultimately have to surrender to God. If you want it to be the last resort, go ahead.

So we could give it back.Consider that free will is no more than intelligence. We are intelligent enough to have choices, not intelligent enough to always make the best choice. God can't take away our intelligence, but He can ask us to let Him guide our choices. The question is whether or not my pet conclusion is Biblical. Since we are talking about the Bible here, there is no reason to get up in arms about whether one conclusion is 'true' in any other arena. Guns schmuns. Make this into an analogy that is pertinent to religion. What are the guns of the non-surrendered religious? Free will? Is there any indication that God DID say to do whatever the heck we want with it?

I think it is.

If you follow someone else's rules you have given up control. You do not, any longer, get to make up your own. What control have I given up? The freedom to do whatever I want even if it doesn't hurt anyone. The freedom to go wherever I want, to engage in certain sexual activities, to swing, to read porn, etc, etc, etc. I do not even have the freedom to think about whatever I want!The only reason why this is a silly argument is because it is all willing surrender. There is no God with a sword and handcuffs. There never is a God who 'controls' a person. Therefore to say we give control to God is not explainable in the same terms as with a physical power.

Right. How is choosing to follow God by doing the right thing, less of an exercise of free will?

I feel that you *willfully* ignore parts of the Bible which speak directly about condemnation for not eventually surrendering, and I feel that this parable has more to do with the reception of sinners into heaven who HAVE surrendered. The master does accept the surrender...it is only because of the offer of such that the son was taken back. You will remember that before this surrender the son was 'dead' to the father.That was a good post Ringo, and mine is still a traditional interpretation. It is often nice to have a fresh perspective to evaluate Scripture through. That is, as long as it maintains its integrity and context.