Who won the Collins-Dawkins Debate?

Where can I order a large poster of the Sombrero Galaxy with that quote underneath?This statement is profound and full of wisdom and reverence.Most religions debase God by trying to reduce God down into terms they can understand - even to the point where they believe in fairy tales and tribal legends of a warrior alpha-male god. Most religious people think they are honoring God by very stridently and "faithfully" believing in this smallish view of God when in fact they are committing (in my view) blasphemy.Scientist like Dawkins and others are the true religious leaders of today, while the religion-centric theologians are not much more than sophisticated superstitious witch doctors.

That would be a good move if we were playing Dodgeball Schrafinator's point is poignant and relevant.We have had this discussion before. I went back and found our exchange here Message 21In that exchange you provided a single example which demonstrates I believe Confirmation Bias in action.... You said "The wife wasn't looking for such a verse; she happened to run across it".She must have been looking at some level or she would have never made the obtuse connection!My reply still applies, forgive me to belabor the point... My turn for a story. A couple days after I started the Thread "Bible: Word of God or not" I visited a library and was browsing the new book section and spied a book with the title "This I Believe" which had a similar theme to the question I had asked in the thread, except it was not limited to the bible.Interesting, I thought, as I had just moments prior, discussed the thread with my wife as we were walking into the library. I even mentioned your post on coincidences.I picked up a couple of other books and sat down to skim through them. In the forward of the "This I Believe" book was a quote from Thomas Paine which piqued my interest as I did not know much about Thomas Paine. When I more closely examined the other books I selected I was shocked to notice that one of them was Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" with commentary. This is not a very popular or common book. The chances of this are slim and are probably smaller than the one you described.Since I am not as experienced interpreting incidences like this as you are, what do you think is the significance?Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

Truthlover, I try to check myself to be sure my skepticism does not turn into cynicism. I would not want to be so skeptical that a miracle occurs in my view and I miss it because of a skeptical outlook. However...In the case you have provided it does indeed appear that your are cherry picking the positive cases. In the positive case you provide your proof was that child got better after two years. That is explainable within the natural realm. For example, people revive from a coma after decades. The body is a complex and amazing machine and the outcomes can be unpredictable.Here is a very simple question.Why does God never appear to restore missing limbs or parts?Is God limited in this respect? Yes, your missing something, but nothing a understanding of statistics couldn't help out.This is *exactly* the same "logic" that primative cultures used in deciding in the necessity in sacrificing virgin's to the gods, to ensure a good harvest. It is superstition.Your comment "how occasionally or why not addressed" is the crux of the matter.You selection criteria of a supernatural outcome seems to be if the outcome aligns with your own personal desire.Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

shraff is right mike and truthlover need an understanding of statistics.Mike I tried to understand your post but was unable to follow a clear thread. However, I think you are saying that:Miracles happen (on occasions, maybe, we just don't know) is that it?If healings happen like you and truthlover imply it would put a big ole monkey wrench into the way new treatments are approved.New medical treatments are approved based on statistics. If prayer was effective people would have detected a skew in the data. For example, studies often give results with a CI or Confidence Interval for a given results this value would be empirically found to be off on subsequent studies or studies done in other geographical areas. For example, other areas may have fewer prayers or prayers that are less effective due to prayers being offered to the wrong the god. This would mean that treatments maybe more or less effective in the US, than say Japan or India with quite different religious demographics. Hmmmm. Can you find the exact scripture quote because I am sure it says something different.

Mike two questions unanswered

Why does God never restore a missing limb?

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If Christian Prayer was effective why is there not a skew in data to say Japan, India or Saudi Arabia where the Christian faith is not widely practiced.

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mtw writes:

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Also, I have noticed that I only see great evidence of God WHEN I CARE TREMENDOUSLY.

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And you are really selectively looking at the data.....

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You can get red in face at Shraff all you want, but she is right in this case...

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mtw writes:

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that fool would concentrate on a silly science evaluation

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Mike have you ever received modern medical care? Why? Modern medical treatment and care is based on silly science evaluations. Let me advise you to take the doctor's advice and just add the prayers for good measure.

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Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

Why? Lack of faith in god perhaps.

I am not sure i follow that sentence. Are you saying the God takes antibiotics for an ear infection too?However it looks like you put a significant amount of "faith" in the fruits of science vice faith in prayer; in spite of the fact that the bible clearly states that whatever you ask will be given to you.

Great question.Truthlover I would really like to hear you reply.

Truthlover you are weighting successes and failures differently. You referenced a single success as amazing confirmation that prayer works, but here you are admitting that a series of repeated failures would be necessary to convince of the negative.Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

Allow me to also share a ghost story, if you can excuse the diversionThe wife of a friend of mine believed that a ghost haunted their old house. She is a mystical/sensitive type while he is a rational engineer.She stated that this ghost claimed a specific walk-in closet and at times she could smell the ghost. I never knew that a ghost could emit an odor but if you do you research you will find that this is well documented. I will note that she does have a very acute sense of smell and no one else could detect any unusual odor in the closet.One day my friend decided to go ghost busting. He inspected the closet and finally found that the light bulb had at one time came into contact with plastic and had some burnt residue on it. He reasoned that at times when his wife turned the light on, a smell would be generated as the bulb became hot and she did not associate the smell with turning on the light. He replaced the light bulb and the ghost was disappeared.Score one for the rationalist.

Somewhere in this thread someone listed a series of studies concerning the efficacy of prayer in realm of healing.Go read those studies.These studies are carefully designed and they determine outcomes objectively - all outcomes both positive and negative.Science is biased toward the data and facts. Ya I always win chess when I play against my self.Your car example is absurd and sophomoric and you have no understanding of statistics.What are the quantitative measures of unreliability? Those reliability attributes will be represented in the untested population by a definable probability. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

TruthloverI recently happened by this great normal distribution simulation.http://javaboutique.internet.com/BallDrop/Consider yourself or life path as one of those balls dropping and each green decision bifurcation bumper as a prayer experience. If the ball moves right it is a positive result (your prayers answered) if it moves left a negative experience.From the limited perspective of being a single ball in play, it would be impossible to see the big picture of what is really happening and easy to misinterpret the data.You may even end up far to the right and you would feel blessed and that God is with you, when if fact you fooled yourself and the odds are that someone had to occupy the tail portion of the curve.The big picture is what the scientific studies mentioned earlier are trying to tease out of the data - using established statistical techniques.One more point. Your "special pleading" for a unique standing with God is really a matter of vanity. Considering the number of religious groups in the world and though out history you are trying to lay claim that you have it right and everyone else is wrong. Everyone else lives their lives, by the rules of statistics, but you believe you can shape the curve so to speak using prayer because God listens to you but not others who have a wrong or imperfect faith. You need to consider this point a little more thoughtfully, i think.

Truthlover sorry in advance for piling on but I have an additional comment. At the coin toss for the Superbowl they noted that the NFC has won the coin toss 10 years straight. That is a probability of 1 out of 1024. Can we conclude from this single sampling that there are more Christians in the NFC than the AFC? (obviously not as the NFC lost )If this coin toss was very important to you it might lead you to conclude that the god of the NFC is powerful and deserves your devotion.

Because that is what you have really been saying all along!Your perceived prayer success and amazing coincidences have lead you to believe that you are on the right path. As support for you position you provided all sorts of anecdotal evidence, like people getting out the military early, houses being sold, people being healed and a verse containing names of people relevant to a situation.Somewhere in this thread you also claimed you had tried other Christian paths that "did not work" so you gave up and tried another. I can only assume that "did not work" means that you did not have experiences which you subjectively conclude are of a remote probability.In summary you have been using highly improbable events as justifications for your faith and the supernatural.Along these lines.....There is a story of Carl Jung interviewing a woman, who was describing a dream with a beetle and during the interview he looked out the window and saw a beetle just like the woman was describing. It is an amazing circumstance!The question is, how many opportunities for synchronous coincidences occur endlessly while we are conscious?Also, if you are hyper-sensitive, you will recognize many more incredible events, which others might not. I know, I have been associated with charismatic style groups for a long time and they are *very* sensitive to such things. Your story about the names in the verse is a typical example.I would suspect that if we started a thread asking people to relate amazing coincidences in their lives you might be surprised the stories of incredible improbability - from people of an agnostic or atheistic background.One side point is that I have read of some of the dialog between mujadeen fighting the Americans in Iraq. Their dialog sounds a lot like charismatic Christians with claims of amazing physical experiences confirming God's grace and interaction in their lives.In addition, I read about a person being highlighted in the local paper. She was a tarot card reader and has studied the "healing arts". I bet a short discussion with her and you would hear all sorts of wonderful healing incidents. Her experiences is just as valid as yours and both are invalid by statistical sampling theory. So just what it is the improbability threshold that classifies an event as being a miracle versus just run-of-mill statistics?If you won the lottery today with chances of 1 in several million would you not immediately attribute that success to God? Would you moderate your perception, knowing that people of all strips win lotteries? Yes. And maybe when this thread is done we should start a thread on that question. I think it is an important question with interesting implications.The implication is that if God does heal, then apparently God is limited in the things he can or will heal. So by claiming God does heal you are also saying the God is not omnipotent. Of course, you could cop out and say that God does not want to create a miracle that is readily and objectively measurable which would, i guess, destroy faith.You then have to say that God works in the margins of the aether only and mountains are not moved.One interesting storying on healing of limbs. When I was younger a preacher came to the indian village in northern Canada where I lived. He lined us kids all up and told us that he was going create a miracle in each one of us.He told us that we all have one leg shorter than the other, to varying degrees. He prayed with a lot of force and vigor and at the end of the night claimed that we now all have equal length legs. To this day I do walk a pretty straight line. This experience is the source of my question. I reasoned that if God could add a millimeter to one of my legs why could not also restore a limb or cure a medical condition where the leg was several inches short. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

I have come to the conclusion that your above statement is the only honest position.Jumping into the bed of any ole attractive theology that vies for your attention is really infidelity to the true unrevealed God. Let's just hope that God does not hold any grudges for those with misguided but strong convictions.Which I suppose makes me paradoxically sure about one thing - The First Church of the Agnostic is really the only one true church.Or maybe I am just jealous of those that know for absolutely sure.