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Member (Idle past 867 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Morality Decreasing With Time? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
anastasia Member (Idle past 5984 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
jar writes: You want to play word games or give us an example of Absolute Truth? You can't! I can't! None can! I can only tell you how I used the term. I said that morals are our perssonal guesses at truth. Collective morals such as 'love thy neighbor' are the colsest we can come to absolute truths. You pointed out that some moral behavior based on 'thou shalt not kill' for example, is relative. Relative to what? It is relative to 'love thy neighbor'. An absolute truth, or so it seems. If killing shows less love, it is evil. If it shows more love, it is good. It is evil to kill out of hate. It is good to kill because a child's life is in danger. The situations are relative to the greater good, and the greatest good is Absolute Truth. Edited by anastasia, : grammar
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Absolute truth is not something you prove exists jar, it is something you cannot deny! Go ahead and try to give me a logical statement that posits an absolute while denying that absolutes exist. That's why NJ's signature says what it says. You have to use absolutes, in order to deny them. So if you deny them, you might as well say that you don't exist. In fact, you can't prove to me that you do... You might be a silicon chip in a petri dish and all of this is just your imagination. It's just that to deny you do not exist would be absurd in the highest degree. So as usual nothing but word games and attempts to change the subject. It is a shame so many Christians are ignorant of reason and logic and so seem to be unable to understand even basic statements. The question was never whether or not Absolutes exit, but rather whether one specific thing, Absolute Truth, exists. As I said, I have no idea if that thing, Absolute Truth, exists, only that so far no one has been able to show us and support some Absolute Truth that does not resolve upon examination to a triviality. An Absolute Truth that cannot be explained, clearly and simply so that all can understand what is true about it, what worth or value it imparts, is of no importance. If you wish to discuss things, first, pay attention to what the other person says. Second, stop misrepresenting what the other person says. Is this just Rob yet again? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5984 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Brian writes: There's also the incident where Jesus murdered the son of Annas, and then murdered a little boy who had bumped Jesus' shoulde Watched any good National Geographic specials lately?
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2544 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
not necessarily.
if all is relative, then there is someone who will disagree with the statement that all is relative. many people think there are absolutes. hence, the statement is true. oops, so much for the statement being absolute, huh? Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It is relative to 'love thy neighbor'. An absolute truth, or so it seems. You seem to forget that that is a two parter; Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. The first part is qualified by the second clause and that is unique and individual. How you love thy neighbor is relative to how you love yourself. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Brian Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Watched any good National Geographic specials lately? I hardly watch TV and don't have that channel anyway. I studied the Infancy Gospel of Thomas about 12 years ago at Stirling Uni. Anyway, what about Yahweh the bloodthirsty tyrant? Brian.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
The question was never whether or not Absolutes exit, but rather whether one specific thing, Absolute Truth, exists. Of course! What I was trying to remind you of, is that if you disagree with the statement I just made, you will be forced to make an illogical statement. You are making that out to be a play on words, but it is far more than that. It means that absolute truth is a logical necessity. It is the only way to answwer your question. Do you deny logic as admissable in court by labling it as word games? This from the same man who defends the veracity of science because of it's logical and mathematical undeniability? Whoever Rob is, he must have tried to explain this to you before. Anastasia must be another incarnation of Rob as well. We're all born of the same Spirit.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
So you are saying that I am wrong? Because if you are saying that you 'think' I am wrong, then that's a different thing.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You are making that out to be a play on words, but it is far more than that. It means that absolute truth is a logical necessity. Sorry but that is simply not supported by what you have said nor is it related to what I said. I have not said that absolutes cannot or do not exist. I will repeat it yet again:
The question was never whether or not Absolutes exit, but rather whether one specific thing, Absolute Truth, exists. As I said, I have no idea if that thing, Absolute Truth, exists, only that so far no one has been able to show us and support some Absolute Truth that does not resolve upon examination to a triviality. An Absolute Truth that cannot be explained, clearly and simply so that all can understand what is true about it, what worth or value it imparts, is of no importance. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2544 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
not really any difference between the two.
I know you're wrong. You don't agree. and we still have relativety. and that statement in and of itself is relative, because someone will disagree. even the "absolutes" in science aren't, especially if they are right that we actually are but one verse of a multiverse, each with its own set of constants. Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5984 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
I'm just being funny, sorry.
I read some of that myself about 10 years ago, but I had no idea it was the same thing till I watched it. I wasn't too into the subject back then, I guess. Anyway, I didn't come up with a good answer to that problem yet about the violent-seeming nature of God. The best thing to do is take the stories one by one as they have been doing on evc...and just realize that they are not the over-all picture.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
I can only ask "What Absolute Truth?" Justice, Mercy, and love. Pain is relative. All of the above are absolute. That is why we expect them without excuse from others. Or to add context, that is why we are bitter... because we demand it and have lost all hope in receiving. There is only one place that I see them converge, and that is on the cross of Christ. (for the record, that last line was quotemined).
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Justice, Mercy, and love. Pain is relative. All of the above are absolute. How are they absolute? For example people often speck of Justice tempered with Mercy. If that is the case neither are Absolutes. But the issue is not if Absolutes might exist, they do, but of Absolute Truth?
That is why we expect them without excuse from others. Or to add context, that is why we are bitter... because we demand it and have lost all hope in receiving. Who expects them without excuse from others? Who has lost all hope of receiving?
There is only one place that I see them converge, and that is on the cross of Christ. (for the record, that last line was quotemined). What? Just another unsupported assertion and totally unrelated to either the topic or Absolute Truth. You have still provided no evidence of an Absolute Truth or that there is any indication that Morality is decreasing. If anything, all of the evidence is that Morality is increasing. Once we considered slavery moral. Once we considered prohibiting interracial marriage moral. Now both practices are considered immoral. If anything morality is increasing. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Tusko Member (Idle past 132 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: |
I could well have posted the following quote on this forum before during a similar debate - but frankly its too good...
Socrates writes: The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. Theycontradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277 (1953). I suggest it's normal for some members of a society to fear that things are going down the pan morally. Edited by Tusko, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Again you are talking in vagaries.
Love, justice, mercy etc. can hardly be absolutes when their very meaning is wholly contextually dependant. Can you give a specific example where any of these things are absolutes in practical terms?? Whether or not there are absolute truths in any physical sense is comletely irrelevant to any question of morality. It may or may not be a physical truth that A killed B but the moral question of "was A wrong to kill B" resides seperate to this fact, absolute or not.Lets not confuse the existence of truth with the existence of absolute morality. I can see many instances in the bible where in my opinion God acts immorally. Where, in your opinion, do I get that sense of morality from as it is evidently cannot be from God or the bible?? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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