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Author
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Topic: The first 3 chapters of Genesis
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 244 of 307 (350996)
09-21-2006 11:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 243 by kuresu
09-21-2006 11:44 AM
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well still not exactly
The punishment--not being able to eat of the Tree of Life. I don't say that is the punishment. Guess I am having troubles explaining.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd & thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred. Know just how they felt. The punishments are laid out in Genesis 3:
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 243 by kuresu, posted 09-21-2006 11:44 AM | | kuresu has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 248 of 307 (351011)
09-21-2006 12:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 247 by iano
09-21-2006 12:21 PM
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Were Adam and Eve - before they knew right and wrong capable of obeying/disobeying. Jar says yes this time and no another No, jar never says that they were capable of obeying until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 247 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 12:21 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 251 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 12:38 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 253 of 307 (351021)
09-21-2006 12:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 251 by iano
09-21-2006 12:38 PM
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His eating IS the disobedience. After happens...well...afterwards. You can't have after the act during the act. Yes. It is disobedience. Please read what I write.
jar writes: No, jar never says that they were capable of obeying until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. They were incapable of obeying until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 251 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 12:38 PM | | iano has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 258 of 307 (351032)
09-21-2006 1:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 256 by iano
09-21-2006 12:46 PM
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They were like little children, they did not know right from wrong. Like any child they were capable of disobeying. They had no defense though, no way to understand right from wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 256 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 12:46 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 262 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 1:16 PM | | jar has replied | | | Message 272 by Phat, posted 09-21-2006 1:51 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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You weren't so definite before. Before, you said "yes and no." If you can't recall, I'll quote what you said before. Please do. Quote the full message and provide links so that folk can follow the conversation, so that folk can see that I went on to explain that statement.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 261 by robinrohan, posted 09-21-2006 1:13 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 266 of 307 (351043)
09-21-2006 1:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 262 by iano
09-21-2006 1:16 PM
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Play whatever word games you wish. I would have no problem characterizing it as ignorance if that is the term YOU wish to use; I do think innocence might be more apt. What I have said is that they did not have the tools needed to make an informed decision, they did not know right from wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 262 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 1:16 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 268 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 1:36 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 269 of 307 (351047)
09-21-2006 1:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 268 by iano
09-21-2006 1:36 PM
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You say only capable of disobeying not obeying. But however ignorant or innocent children are capable of obeying as well as disobeying so your analogy doesn't work. From where the insistance that they were UNABLE to obey. We know they did not. We know they were tempted. But from where could not? From where the foregone conclusion. You know I have answered that about a brazillion times in this thread alone not to mention how many times I've answered that in other threads. Adam & Eve did not know right from wrong until after they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. Since they did not know right from wrong, like little children, they went on spur of the moment decisions. When another authority figure says go ahead, when it looks good, smells good and is good to eat, they eat. From Genesis 3:
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Only AFTER eating do they become aware of right and wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 268 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 1:36 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 270 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 1:46 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 271 of 307 (351050)
09-21-2006 1:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 270 by iano
09-21-2006 1:46 PM
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So what God has said didn't provide sufficient for a balanced choice - it was a foregone conclusion once so tempted? Kinda. What God said meant no more than what the serpent said. The did not know right from wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 270 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 1:46 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 278 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 2:00 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 276 of 307 (351056)
09-21-2006 1:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 272 by Phat
09-21-2006 1:51 PM
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Re: A & E: Children or Adults?
Are "innocent" adults the same as undeveloped children? When they do not know right from wrong, yes. Morally, legally and practically, if they are unable to know right from wrong they are innocent. Not only was their ability to understand right and wrong undeveloped, it was totally missing.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 272 by Phat, posted 09-21-2006 1:51 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 286 of 307 (351069)
09-21-2006 2:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 278 by iano
09-21-2006 2:00 PM
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Kinda? You said they were incapable of obeying prior to eating the apple. Disobeying (eating the apple) was the only option for them. That means disobeying was a foregone conclusion. Not foregone. But as the story is written, inevitable. They do not know right from wrong. God tells them don't do it. ENTER STAGE RIGHT: the serpent. The playwright then brings in the serpent. Serpent points out that God is just joshing them, they will not die that day, and that they will learn from eating the fruit. (cue voice off stage)
Less Filling Tastes Great (/cue) In the story the outcome is inevitable, as I said. They were two total innocents manipulated by outside forces.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 278 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 2:00 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 291 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 2:20 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 295 of 307 (351085)
09-21-2006 2:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 291 by iano
09-21-2006 2:20 PM
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God = Jerk?
That they would eat was inevitable given the manipulants. So God punishes them for doing something that they had no choice but to do (they could not obey God you said). What angle to you now travel down so as to not make God a jerk. I don't. That was covered way, way back in this thread, Message 80 IIRC. If the story is factual then God is a Jerk. The only way that any other conclusion is possible is if the Garden of Eden story is as I have described it throughout this thread. It is a Just So story, written to explain life and our relationships. It is a description of a God that is totally different from that found in Genesis one, a personal God, one that walks with us, that punishes us but then forgives us, that clothes us. It is a far different picture than the aloof, transcendant, distant God found in the much later creation myth found in Genesis 1. Also see Message 54 and Message 60 for more on the relationship between Gen 1 & teh GOE tale.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 291 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 2:20 PM | | iano has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: God = Jerk?
This is your method of explaining it away and turning it into something more agreeable to modern sensibilites. And that is yet just another of your lame unsupported assertions.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 299 by robinrohan, posted 09-21-2006 3:29 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 307 by iano, posted 09-21-2006 3:41 PM | | jar has not replied |
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