Re: Substantiating The Validity Of Bible Prophecy

Actually Revelations 18 & 19 seem to be refering to the United States and not Vatican City, and perhaps to Los Angeles, City of the Angels.The whole idea of getting Revelations 18&19 to equate to Vatican City would just be something to laugh at if it were not for the fact that for the first time in history it is possible for someone deluded enough to believe this sillyness to actually do something stupid that might lead to a nuclear war.Revelations 18&19 is pretty clear. It is talking about Rome, not Vatican City and using a comparison to Babylon. It is a political tract dealing with the political and economic events of 1800 years ago, another pseudo historical story that gives us a glimpse of what the political writers of the period were saying with their propaganda.If on the otherhand you want to try to take a piece of political propaganda written to apply to 1800 or so years ago and misapply it to the current situation, then the US would be the Babylon of Rev 18&19.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Very likely both. It seems likely he was a political broadsider, and opinions vary about whether he is talking about Nero or Domitian but he is certainly talking about some contemporary goings on sometime around 70AD to around 100AD.One interesting thing is that the Gospel of John (not the same author) seems to contain a fully realized eschatology that contradicts the eschatology found in Revelations. There are two ways to get around this conudrum, you can as so many of the End-Timers do fall back on the ever handy "not fully-realized" eschatology, which is a great out. It allows the end-timers to always say "But wait, there is more." I get the feeling personally when I hear most eschatologists speak that they are selling Ginsu Knives on some info-mercial.The second is to look at Revelations in the light of either the Nero (most likely IMHO) or Domitian reign. If you read Revelations as a political broadside written by an exiled politico, one with a limited knowledge of Greek unlike the authors of either the Gospel of John or the Epistles of John, and likely a relatively parochial outlook on events, it seems to make sense.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Of course Thessalonians is simply pointing out that we should live the Christian life, trying to do what is right and not do what is wrong and says nothing about Christians recognizing even the season.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Saul was a fanatic before the trip. Paul was a fanatic after the trip.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sure they do Buz.Would you like to step through it line by line?Remember, John was writing about a period over 1800 years ago. We know that it is all long in the past and Rome was what he knew about, most likely the Rome of Nero. But if you really want to move it into the future, the US is far more likely what is being depicted than Russia, in particular it is likely talking about California.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Only when you are ready Buz. I see nothing in Revelations that points to anything beyond 100AD or so, so it is not a biggie. Ancient history as far as I'm concerned. What's more, the Gospel of John seems to invalidate anything in the Revelations of John so it's doubly moot, completely irrelevant.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

For those who wish to read Revelations 13 it can be found here.The passage that many interpret as Buz has is near the end. It says: Well, there is nothing in there that even remotely pertains to a cashless society. It MIGHT be one that you could say required some form of identification, but even then it is classically vague.Nothing there to show a cashless society. In fact nothing there to show anything, it is implied that the mark will be some generic thing such as citizenship, and not even unique to the individual. Again, some totally vague non-statement. Something this loose and indeterminate is just silly. Again, just a vague nonsense assertion. It is so hopelessly vague that I can with confidence say that it has been fulfilled annually since the very first civilization at least 4000 years before Biblical Creation. Again, total nonsense. This too is so vague that I can also say that it has been fulfilled every year since the earth formed.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You said cashless society buz. Now in the typical bait and switch of teh prophesy game, pea, pea, where is the pea, you drop that claim and make yet another.Sorry Buz but it is all just a shell game. This is always the case with the prophecies game. When I pull up the scripture and show that it says nothing like what you claim you simply dance away and change the claim. Further more, if you read Revelations 17 (ain't it fun when you can just pick and choose passages and pretend they mean anything) which can be found here the Ten nations obviously refers to the US (the Beast) and the G-10 Group of Nations, Belgium, Canada, France, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and the United States as well as the Banks of Germany and Sweden. Yet more shuck and jive talk.As for the rest, they have been fulfilled annually, some for as long as there has been civilization, the others since the first dry land appeared.As a Christian I can confidently say that all of the End-Times prophecy is just bullshit. The things in Revelations happened 18-1900 years ago. The end time comes for each of us in turn, and that is it.It really is as simple as that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

to which Buz replies:

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Interesting guess and that's all it is. Nothing obvious to me.

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Not even a guess Buz, it is a made up humerous look to show just how silly prophecy is. The only difference between my G-10 and the US as the beast scenario and your Russia, China, Muslim states eastern power change partners as soon as someone shows what you picked is sill tap-dance is that I can actually point to ten nations that DO control the finance of the world. I have fact, you have fantasy. LOLI bet they were Buz but since the prophecies all came about or should have come about 1800-1900 years ago, it doesn't much matter. They daid already. As to knowing how it wil all play out, if this thread is any example you don't have a clue.Look at some of the nonsense you posted. Buz, do you have any idea how cloudy it is in the desert? Drought and evaporation = clouds. Come on Buz. Look at a weather map. Where do the clouds form off Africa. Not over the desert, but out over the oceans. So now we have not just drought and evaporation but violent perciptation with 100lb hail stones (which are predicted? Where in the Bible Buz or is that the prediction from some preacherman?)Buz, look at weather. Drought and evaporation is one area usually means precipitation somewhere else.Buz, these so called predictions are simply jokes. They are silly. Where have you lived the last four or five decades. China is not nuclear ambitious. They have them. And they have rockets that can reach the US. That is no prediction, just the recognition of what everyone has known for decades. Well, we have already dealt with the claim of moneyless global monetary and I showed that that is NOT predicted in Revelation 13 as you claimed. Shifts in world poswers and global drought and warming, again, they been happening right alon so no prophecy there.Im sorry Buz but simply gotta say to any Christians reading this thread, chortle, laugh, laugh hard if you want, but understand that like Buz, there really are people who believe this nonsense. Find out who they are. Make damn sure you don't vote for any of them. If you find out that one may be in a position of power, be afraid, be very afraid.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Buz asserted:

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2. . chips with marks and numbers are already being implanted in animals, et al. It will likely be a matter of time before chips will be implanted on the forehead or hand so as to prevent security breaches and identity theft which is becoming a very serious problem.

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to which you rightly replied But there is one other thing to show that the RFID technology is NOT related to what is described as the Mark in the Bible.The MARK as described in the Bible is always the same. It is the same on every person. It does not identify the person but rather the Beast. Things like RFID IDs or Social Security Numbers or Passports that are unique to the item or individual simply would not fulfill the requirements in Revelations.From Revelations 13:16-18 Buz and the other End-Timers simply take pieces from the book and then make up some fantasy story to go along with it. It doesn't seem to matter what is actually in the Bible, they ignore what it really says and run with their fiction.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, when you build an argument that is based on a false premise, it is very unlikely that you will get a right answer. All that Islam questions is the divinity of Jesus. But that is not a problem according to the Bible, nor does it make them anti-christ. Thomas the Skeptic also doubted. But when shown the evidence he believed.If a Muslim were presented with the same evidence shown to Thomas who knows what they would decide?So, yet another of your assertions, that Islam is related to the Anti-Christ seems to be just more of your personal fantasy.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, Hal Lindsey like so many of the televangelists is pretty much a joke and a profitable commercial venture. He has been very successful selling well over 35,000,000 copies of his books to the gullible and easily led. He's got a great sideshow going and you gotta give him credit for milking it for all it is worth. Now that he and Paul Crouch have parted ways he stands to make even more money hawking his products.AbE:I forgot to mention that much of his stuff is really just recycled material from John F. Walvoord who showed just how profitable it could be to sell Armeggedon books. Walvoord's Armageddon, Oil, and the Middle East Crisis from back in the early 70's was one of the first and still one of the most successful of the Oil related Armeggedon stories, but in it Islam really played only the role of poor victims that happen to be in the way of super-power quests for oil.Edited by jar, : add info on Walvoord

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

They are mutually supportive of all of their commercial enterprises as well. They willingly have each other on their own propaganda shows, whether it is TBN or 700 Club or Sky Angel or DayStar, they help each other with marketing in ways that most commercial enterprises could learn from. The televangelist has learned that the Christian Right is a virtually bottomless money source, a cash cow of Biblical proportions. They have realized that there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't all be rich and that the folk buying their books look on them as sequels, a never ending stream of royalty checks.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I just bet they do. I'm old enough to remember the tension over Quemoy and Matsu.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sure can. It's really big business now. Peter Popoff, even after his scams were exposed on national TV by James Randi, is still in business. The last I saw on him showed he had a salary of over $500,000.00 in 2004 and his little medicine show had revenue of over $16,000,000.00 in revenue in 2004 with about 37% of that going into "fundraising and expenses".Can't get much more gullible than that. And he is small time.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion