Belief Statement - jar

I didn't say he denied Jesus' divinity.What he did say is that following a faith that denies Jesus' divinity (Islam)is a valid path to salvation. Given that Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Jesus Himself, I cannot see how following Islam can be compatible with a very basic Christian teaching.Islam considers the Incarnation as an abomination, and the Incarnation is a basic xian teaching. Jar can call himself whatever he wants, that's up to him.I have a cat here with a beak, two wings, and is covered in feathers, it is a cat isn't it?Brian.

But, this isn't xianity.Brian.

Point is, you are calling yourself a xian.

Strange, I don't recall calling you a Xian in that post, maybe you are a little confused?Brian.

It is only for personal curiosity.The number of followers of a faith has no bearing on its reality. A faith with one member has as much chance as being true as that with 2 billion members. However, the faith of that single person can also be as much nonsense as that of the faith with 2 billion members.Brian.

But Jar is specifically saying that people who deny that Jesus is the incarnation of God will still be saved. This is different from someone who just goes about doing good deeds.Muslims specifically say that worshipping Jesus is an abomination. Buddhism teaches that there are no eternal beings, thus they do not even entertain the idea of Jesus as God.But, the Bible is quite explicit about who will be savedJesus claims I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me I don't see where He says, no one comes to the Father except through me and Allah, Buddha, Brahma, and uncle Tom Cobbly and all.If that isn't explicit enough then the Book of Acts 4:12 claims And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.How obvious does it have to be.Is it a case of ignoring the bits of the Bible that contradict a particular position?For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Whoever believes in Jesus, not for those who specifically deny Him.Amazing thing a faith isn't it, we can just make things up and call it a faith.Brian.

I think you have to do some pretty extreme mutilation of the words of Jesus to argue that people who specifically deny Christ will be saved. We certainly have to ignore the texts I provided for Jazz, and ignore the problem of worshipping false idols as well. And what is the will of the Father? Why is Jesus telling lies about who can be saved? I am very familiar with the sheep and the goats teaching, it is a basic Sunday School lesson. I am also aware that the sheep and the goats story actually supports my view and undermines your claim.
Matthew 25 is going about FOLLOWERS of Jesus, not about followers of another faith. It is about people who profess to be a follower of Jesus but do not follow His teachings, which sounds familiar doesn’t it?Essentially, it claims that anyone can’ say’ they are a Xian, but it is more than a declaration of faith, it is putting Jesus’ teachings into practice.So, Matthew 25 supports my position because Jesus DID NOT teach that you are saved by following another faith, you are saved through Him. You can ignore the vast majority of Jesus teachings if you wish, but you can’t call it xianity. So, how can people, such as Muslims, possibly pray to Jesus if they think the teaching of the incarnation is an abomination?
Also, what about Muslim parents who teach their children that Jesus’ divinity is an abomination? We know what Jesus said about leading children away from him. If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea.Of course, Jesus didn’t really mean this did He? If Jesus can save more than Christians, it makes a complete sham of His Crucifixion.Why not just save people instead of going through the pointless sacrifice? Oh, I couldn’t agree more, it is easy to say you are a Christian, but actually being one is a different matter.Brian.

I hope observe this when that S&M guy who lives near you comes calling. Brian.

Hi GDR,I only have 2 mins and I wont be able to post until tomorrow now. I think you need to read in context, it makes no sense to take this verse as relating to everyone in a nation. it is referring to those who have heard the gospel in those nations.Think about it.A wee aboriginal guy is up in front of Jesus, Jesus says to him that he didn't follow the gospel, the guy will reply that he has no idea what Jesus is talking about.The sheep and the goats is a story about xians who profess to be xians but do not act as Jesus wanted them to. It makes no sense for the gathering to be anytihng other than those who heard the Word of Christ.Think about Buddhist monks, say the Theravada tradition, who were fed and clothed by villagers, the monks didn't feed or clothe anyone, their entire time was spent preparing for enlightenment. How can they be saved?More tomorrow, I have to work.Brian.

Hi Jar, Can you tell me how an atheist is capable of 'loving God'?Brian.Edited by Brian, : formatting error

They are according to the Bible. Isn't it about looking at the Bible as a whole? The New testament is just one part of the Bible.The whole of the Bible suggests to me that Yahweh is a jealous God and doesn't take too kindly to people worshipping false idols. In fact, the OT gives a lot of examples of how God treats people who worship other gods, even the Israelites were punished a few times for this.The idea that worshipping other gods will result in salvation is inconsitent with the biblical texts. Believing in Jesus' divinity is only ONE factor that leads to salvation. Belief in His victory over death is another one, belief that He died so that your sins can be forgiven is another.Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.IMO, there is a mountain of biblical evidence that is being ignored in the 'all will be saved' camp.Anyway, if all can be saved by following their own faith, what is the point of Jesus at all? What is the point of Jesus charging the apostles to spread the Gospel if their possible audiences could already be saved by following their own faith?The God of the Bible is essentially a barbarian, he is a jealous and spiteful God who has no qualms about slaughtering countless women and children, why should His character change to suit you? It isn't a requirement of your Christianity maybe.Brian.

I have read these verses many times and really cannot see how you come to your conclusion. I mean how explicit does it have to be?For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.Belief in the Son is paramount here, it doesn’t say belief in the son or in Allah or in Buddha or in Brahma. How can this verse be taken any other way? I am genuinely interested. Sorry, I find Lewis excruciatingly boring.Brian.

They are damned for all eternity. Pity it isn't your choice mate. Yes. How do we know what the will of the father is? But they don't follow the teachings of Jesus. How can they follow His teachings when they don't believe God is a Father? They may well, but it won't be through anything Jesus preached. Well since Jesus was dead for about 600 years before Muhammad was born it would be difficultBrian.

But these people still BELIEVED that they were following Christ, they just didn;t do it properly. There is no mention here that EVERYONE who is nice to others are the ones to be saved?Do you have a problem with God condemning people to hell? Not everyone will be saved according to Christianity, so Jesus did create many people in the knowledge that He will send them to Hell some day. All you are doing is really forcing your view of Christianity on to people who don't believe in it.For example, I live certainly live a life that you describe, but I think the God of the Bible is a fictitious character whose literary nature is one of a bloodthirsty barbarian. I certainly wouldn't want salvation from that creature. So, how do I get saved?Also, what makes you think that God hates evil and hates to see others in sorrow, this certainly isn't the picture painted of God in the Bible.All this be nicey nice to others and you are saved really begs the question of why was Jesus even born?If Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and all other people on earth can be saved through being a nice person, then there is no point in Jesus. Different strokes for different folks.Brian.

So, "to love God" is not a command?Doesn't this contradict your earlier staements that we are to love God and others as we love ourselves?What you are saying is not a command, a command is something you are told to do, you are having us atheists passively love God, which doesn't fit your criteria.Brian.