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Author Topic:   Nested Biological Hierarchies
Scrutinizer
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 87 (321561)
06-14-2006 6:38 PM


Greetings
Hello! I am new here to the forum, and I hope contribute to a rational discussion.
Anyway, I've been reading over this thread, and I think I should just give my own input. Some of you have mentioned how evolution might predict this structure, as according to the theory, all life descended and speciated from a common ancestor. I don't argue that the ToE predicts this, but I think I see a way creationism might "predict" the nested hierarchy apparent in taxonomy, at least to an extent.
Inferring from the biblical story of creation, God intended man to be able to comprehend the world around him. If this is true, we would not expect to see, as Chiroptera said, "species with a mix-and-match set of characteristics that would have confounded any attempt at finding an objective... pattern." Rather, there would need to be some form of apparent pattern among the different species for humans to be able to make sense of the immense biological diversity. It just so happens that we are able to interpret this pattern as a nested hierarchy.
I'm just saying that you should not use taxonomical structure as "confirmation" of evolution, since such a pattern can also be expected assuming intelligent design.

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Chiroptera, posted 06-14-2006 6:58 PM Scrutinizer has replied
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 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 06-16-2006 7:14 AM Scrutinizer has replied

  
Scrutinizer
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 87 (321577)
06-14-2006 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
06-11-2006 12:46 PM


Re: What's Theobald's premise?
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
Suppose that you agree that a Creator exists and that He created all sorts of kinds of animals, as Augustine described it being, "a manifestation of His each individual thought." Out of those millions of species, aren't some going to look more alike than others?
I would probably answer "yes," but you can really only take this argument so far. There are probably far more potential species than the number represented in the history of life on earth, maybe even infinitely many more, unless there is some inherent restriction on this. If God created a "random" assortment of kinds, then, it would seem very unlikely that any two kinds would share any apparent similarity whatsoever. Then again, the different species need to be able to "work together" to form a stable ecosystem, so there might be a limit to this "randomness."
Of course, another way for there to be multiple species with shared characteristics is common descent, without even requiring any macroevolution. Speciation can occur in multiple ways that in no way contradict creationism, including geographical isolation, changes in mating seasons, sexual preference, and mutations that prevent production of fertile offspring, as is the case with the horse and donkey, for instance. None of these require the addition of new genes or alleles, only the "sifting" or loss of some within a population by natural selection.
So again, in answer to your question, yes, we would expect certain species to look more alike than others, giving an apparent nested hierarchy. But you mustn't forget that there are other ways for there to exist similar species than for God to just happen to create them that way initially.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2006 12:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Scrutinizer
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 87 (321600)
06-14-2006 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Chiroptera
06-14-2006 6:58 PM


Re: Greetings
Chiroptera writes:
Why does the immense biological diversity need to make sense?
All I meant is that assuming the Creator wanted His creation to be understood by man, then it seems logical that He would create such a pattern. If God commanded Adam to name every living creature, a pattern would make this task far easier, allowing him to keep track of each animal by mentally grouping similar kinds. I know from experience that classifying things can make them easier to remember, especially when dealing with large groups.
If Adam actually did name every animal in less than one day, as the Bible implies, he would have needed to be able to group them together somehow, unless, of course, he was a genius.
A possible alternative is that the entire pattern in taxonomy is only perceived and that we only see the pattern we do for the same reason we see patterns in cloud formations. I personally don't think this is true, but I just thought I should mention this possibility.
Another point. Historically, creationist thinking seems to have often led to the assumption that the universe is ordered and even comprehensible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was Galileo who said that "Mathematics is the alphabet with which God has written the universe." Great scientists like Galileo and Linnaeus seemed to assume from their belief in one God that the universe ought to have an order to it, and I tend to agree with their logic. If we can reasonably assume that, if there is a Creator, He would want us to understand the world, then creationism does in fact predict some sort of pattern among species. A nested heirarchy might only be the pattern we choose to see, though in principle we could find other methods of classification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Chiroptera, posted 06-14-2006 6:58 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
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Scrutinizer
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 87 (322272)
06-16-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by fallacycop
06-14-2006 11:43 PM


Re: Greetings
fallacycop writes:
That won't do as an answer because it would only explains why there is a hierarchical pattern, but gives no reasonable explanation to why that same pattern can be obtained by differet methods, such as taxonomy, and genetic analysis (or did god expect Adam to do some genetic analysis before naming the animals?).
No, of course Adam could not have done any genetic analysis. My example with Adam was only to show that we would expect some pattern among creatures even from the premise of creationism.
Certainly there should exist a significant degree of correlation between genetic analysis and taxonomy, to use your example. For instance, we would expect a hippo to be more genetically similar to a worm than to, say, a ficus. Even just among mammals, we would expect a human to more genetically similar to a chimpanzee than to, say, a mouse. This is of course because phenotype is defined largely by the genotype, so those organisms with more physical characteristics in common should obviously have more in common genetically than organisms with fewer shared physical characteristics.
No one denies that taxonomically closer organisms (i.e., those with closer phenotypes) ought also to have generally more similarity genetically. It should be predicted by anyone, creationist or evolutionist, with any background in genetics.
Most creationists even accept that certain similarities between species are due to common ancestry, such as between dogs, cyotes, dingos, jackals, foxes, and wolves or between horses, donkeys, and zebras. As I said before,
Speciation can occur in multiple ways that in no way contradict creationism, including geographical isolation, changes in mating seasons, sexual preference, and mutations that prevent production of fertile offspring, as is the case with the horse and donkey, for instance. None of these require the addition of new genes or alleles [(i.e., macroevolution)], only the "sifting" or loss of some within a population by natural selection.
Of course there are some examples of where genetic similarities are observed which are not predicted by common ancestry:
Actually, the molecular clock has many problems for the evolutionist. Not only are there the anomalies and common Designer arguments I mentioned above, but they actually support a creation of distinct types within ordered groups, not continuous evolution, as non-creationist microbiologist Dr Michael Denton pointed out in Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. For example, when comparing the amino acid sequence of cytochrome C of a bacterium (a prokaryote) with such widely diverse eukaryotes as yeast, wheat, silkmoth, pigeon, and horse, all of these have practically the same percentage difference with the bacterium (64 -69%). There is no intermediate cytochrome between prokaryotes and eukaryotes, and no hint that the ”higher’ organism such as a horse has diverged more than the ”lower’ organism such as the yeast.
The same sort of pattern is observed when comparing cytochrome C of the invertebrate silkmoth with the vertebrates lamprey, carp, turtle, pigeon, and horse. All the vertebrates are equally divergent from the silkmoth (27-30%). Yet again, comparing globins of a lamprey (a ”primitive’ cyclostome or jawless fish) with a carp, frog, chicken, kangaroo, and human, they are all about equidistant (73-81%). Cytochrome C’s compared between a carp and a bullfrog, turtle, chicken, rabbit, and horse yield a constant difference of 13-14%. There is no trace of any transitional series of cyclostome ’ fish ’ amphibian ’ reptile ’ mammal or bird.
Another problem for evolutionists is how the molecular clock could have ticked so evenly in any given protein in so many different organisms (despite some anomalies discussed earlier which present even more problems). For this to work, there must be a constant mutation rate per unit time over most types of organism. But observations show that there is a constant mutation rate per generation, so it should be much faster for organisms with a fast generation time, such as bacteria, and much slower for elephants. In insects, generation times range from weeks in flies to many years in cicadas, and yet there is no evidence that flies are more diverged than cicadas. So evidence is against the theory that the observed patterns are due to mutations accumulating over time as life evolved.
Design in Nature | Answers in Genesis
fallacycop writes:
For instance: why would god choose to have man and chimp share a similar set of broken genes? That one is really hard to explain away with some just-so explanation.
Could you please provide some examples of "broken" genes that humans and chimps share?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by fallacycop, posted 06-14-2006 11:43 PM fallacycop has replied

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Scrutinizer
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 87 (322319)
06-16-2006 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by RAZD
06-16-2006 7:14 AM


Re: Greetings
RAZD writes:
According to evolution, humans can never get a retina turned right-side-out without first entirely losing the current vision system, but according to ID (or to god-did-it) there is no such restraint on updating the design.
This may be off-topic, but I just thought I had to say something. The human retina is by no means "inside-out" or a "bad" design. First of all, the neurons connected to the photoreceptors must run in front for the opaque retinal pigment epithelium (RPE) to make contact with all the rods and cones from behind to provide nutrients and keep them from wearing out. If I remember correctly, the neurons "in the way" of the light actually are virtually transparent and have the same index of refraction as the surrounding vitreous humor. As for the inherent blind spot, it's no impediment since it is off to the side, and the other eye makes up for the lost information, anyway. We could discuss this in another thread if you wish.
Anyway, there actually is a restriction to updating the design, at least assuming one God. If designs were constantly changing or there were no consistency, it would make it look like multiple gods were competing; God would have to be consistent to show He is the only Designer. Besides, there is no real need for any modification to the human eye; it is all we need for survival, and our intelligence more than makes up for any deficiencies it may have (i.e., we can make glasses or contact lenses to correct near- or far-sightedness, and we can invent microscopes and telescopes if we ever need to see anything small or far away).
RAZD writes:
You are either talking about intelligent design OR creationism: these concepts are not compatable.
Actually, both concepts are entirely compatible. Any theory of intelligent design implies some supernatural intervention sometime in the past (whether it be billions or only thousands of years ago) for life to now exist at all, and in just about every creation story, at least one intelligent designer is involved. ID theorists just claim that ID does not say anything about the Designer, except that He is intelligent; ID in no way precludes the God of the Bible.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I was talking about the biblical story of creation and just assumed you knew that that story involves an intelligent designer. Hence life is an intelligent design according to creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 06-16-2006 7:14 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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