Paul of Tarsus - the first Christian?

I don't believe that Paul was or could have been the first Christian disciple. He persecuted the Christian disciples. It was that former life of opposing the Christian faith which furnished the backround of his becoming a disciple.But a very basic reading of the book of Acts informs me of this. Compared to the first apostles he was a "Johnny Come Lately" kind of apostle. I am sure that he was a test to the older apostles and workers until he won their trust.So who was the first Christian? I don't know. Probably the first person that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into in the closed room after His resurrection in John 20."Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit"(vs.21,22)At that moment perhaps the first Christian was regenerated with the divine life of the risen Christ.

Legend, Paul does not speak only of faith in the redemptive death of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. This is because God's eternal purpose cannot be accomplished only and solely by the forgiveness of people's past sins.So though Paul does teach justification by faith as the entrance into the whole realm of God's kingdom he by no means stops there. Faith in a resurrected and indwelling Christ for moment by moment daily righteousness and building up of the church is repeatedly emphasized. This is why we have such additional concepts as transformation, sanctification, conformation, building up, growth, glorification. We do not have from Paul only justification, redemption, and reconciliation.In fact "reconcilation" is also spoken of as a need to those for whom the problem of eternal redemption has been settled. My statements above still hold. But Paul did say this also as you indicate also. Jesus Christ taught the very same thing. Before Paul taught it, Jesus taught it. Or I should say that Jesus continued to teach it after His ascension, through the apostles, including Paul. I'd like to know on what basis you decide that this was "the major teaching event in the ministry of Jesus." Does that mean this is the event you personally are most impressed with? Does this mean you favor this event above others? On what basis do you decide that the so-called Sermon on the Mount is the topmost and major teaching event in Christ's ministry? It would not be difficult to prove that your summary of Paul's teaching and your summary of Christ's teaching are really biased. You are really being selective and excluding quite a bit in both cases to portray a fuller summary of Christ's and His apostle's words.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:34 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:34 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:35 AM

Legend,Upon re-reading your statements I noticed this time this: This is demonstrably a false statement. Read Matthew 5:1 again."And when He saw the crowds, He went up to the mountain. And after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. And opening His mouth, He taught them." (Matt. 5:1,2)The message of the Sermon on the Mount was NOT given to a large crowd. At least it was not given to the larger crowd that was at the base of the mountain. When Jesus saw the large crowd He "went up to the mountain." Those who were His disciples followed Him. And this was most assuredly a minority of the "crowds" from which He departed to go up to the mountain. It is then to this smaller group who went up higher with Him (in more ways than one), that He delivered His "Sermon on the Mount."What other criteria would you offer to prove that the Sermon on the Mount is the major message of all Christ's teachings?This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 01:29 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 01:32 PM

Legend, For discussion's sake let's say I agree with you. Let's say that this was the most important section of teaching in Christ's whole ministry.Okay, what then is your point, if it is?Are you saying, Therefore other sections of His teaching should be disregarded? Are you saying that this section is the master key with which we must understand the other sections of His teaching?This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 09:15 PM

Legend, I am taking a more open minded approach to your argument. For the moment I'm going to grant you that idea. If we count the Sermon on the Mount as the most important discourse of Jesus why dismiss other teachings as "spiritual nonsense?"This does not suggest to me that you are really interested in prioritizing His words as much as wanting to discount the words you don't like. Can we meet somewhere in the middle? Can you convince me that the other speeches are more meaningful if understood that they are FOR this speech's major axioms?I would be much more impressed by that. I'm suspicious of a concept of pointing out THESE words of Jesus so that we can count THOSE words as "spiritual nonsense." You're right in that I may not have read all of the posts from the beginning. At least I can't quite remember if I read all the posts. "Salvation" has varying degrees of connotation in the New Testament. There is one level of salvation to be justified from sin forever. There is another level of salvation needed if having been forgiven you are still living by the fallen nature.I have been "saved" eternally for many years. I still need a salvation from my temper, a salvation from anxiety about daily living, a salvation from loving the world, a salvation from expressing my fallen soul rather than the indwelling Christ who lives in me.I think the first thing is that we realize that "salvation" in the New Testament carries somewhat different significances. I agree up to a point. I think the phrase "justification / salvation" means that "salvation" is only justification by faith. And such a concept would be totally shortsighted in a careful analysis of Paul's writings.Take Romans for an example. "For if we, being enemies, were reonciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled" (Rom. 5:10)Did you notice that?Step #1 - Reconciled to God through the death of His Son. That's the result of Justification by Faith.Step #2 - SAVED in His life. That is the salvation to come in the sphere and realm of His resurrection life.From Romans 5:10 Paul devotes considerable words to the subjects of sanctification, transformation, conformation, daily holiness, building up in the practical church life, service, dedication, walking in the Spirit, etc.So how can you adopt an attitude that "Jesus speaks about right behavior. But all that Paul guy talks about is getting saved through faith"? You see such an attitude seems biased to me. On one hand you want to artificially truncate many important words of Christ from the gospel and dismiss them as "spiritual nonsense." And at the same time you want to falsly charge His Apostle Paul of only paying attention to Justification through Faith for salvation. I could not agree with you more heartily. But you are misrepresenting both the entire sphere of the teachings of Jesus and the entire sphere of the teachings of Paul.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-09-2006 01:04 PM

Legend, What teachings of Paul do you feel are misunderstood from a lack of understanding of the teaching of Jesus?Let me see if I could pass your critique on this.

This is an incomplete appreciation of Paul's teaching which is every bit as full as that of Christ who appointed him an apostle."That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit" (Rom. 8:4)Here Paul speaks not of initial justification by faith but daily, step by step walk according to the regenerated human spirit mingled with the indwelling Holy Spirit - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17). Paul is still concerned that the righteous requirement of the law would be fulfilled. The indwelling Holy Spirit empowers the justified to grow into a daily life which fulfills the righteous requirement of the law. This is the objective and positional righteousness. But Paul spends quite a bit of time teaching the subjective dispositional righteousness. This righteous behavior comes out spontaneously and unconsciously by the inward working of the Holy Spirit. If we allow this Spirit to grow our daily walk in the regenerated spirit will spontaneously manifest subjective righteous living.This is exactly what Christ teaching is Matthew. And in John's gospel He tells His disciples that He is the vine and they are the branches which cannot do anything unless they abide in Him. Paul in different words teaches exactly the same. Our walk in the Holy Spirit will manifest subjective behavioral righteousness."The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) This again refers to the positional and judicial righteous standing before God. Paul develops extensively the dispositional righteous living which results in maturity in the growth of the divine life."For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17)This verse is about the daily behavior living in the new testament church life. This community is filled with righteous living in the subjective experience of the believers and thus produces the kingdom of God. There is no descrepency between Christ's teaching in Matthew and Paul's teaching in Romans. The dichotomy is a concoction of Legend's imagination. I don't get the impression that Legend has read the New Testament. I get the impression that Legend has read some skeptical books ABOUT the New Testament.Christ speaks of abiding in Him as a living Person: "I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)We cannot take just Jesus's words and expect to produce fruit for God. We must abide in Jesus Himself so that the divine life in Him flows out also into us. This is like the flow of the life juice in the vine reaching out into the branches. Cut off from the vine, the branches can do nothing.Paul echoes the same thought. Firstly He tells us that Christ is the life giving Spirit - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). He also tells us that this life giving Spirit Who is Christ comes to be united and mingled with the regenerated spirit of the believer - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17). He also tells us that the Lord Jesus Himself is with the regenerated human spirit of the believers - "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Tim. 4:22). Since the Lord is with the regenerated innermost spirit of the believer, the grace of the Lord is also with his spirit - "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Phil. 4:23)Those who are born again and justified by faith are not to struggle and strain in their own endevour to please God. They are to walk by the Spirit which is united with their spirit - [b]"But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16).Those who walk by the Spirit will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. And those who walk by the Spirit will fulfill the righteous requirement of the law - "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the spirit" (Rom. 8:4)I could go on and on. But Paul gives tremendous amount of time not only to positional justification through Christ redemptive death, but to subjective dispositional rightous behavior through walking by the indwelling life giving Spirit of Christ. This is the abiding in the vine that the branches may bear fruit of John's gospel.No one who is not ignorant can charge Paul with only giving attention to positional righteousness in an objective way. We are reconciled through the death of His Son. And we are "MUCH MORE" saved in His indwelling divine life -"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, MUCH MORE we will be saved IN HIS LIFE, having been reconciled" (Rom. 5:10)Reconciliation has taken place for these believers, in the past. Now having been justified, having been reconciled to God through Christ's death, MUCH MORE there is the saving in His resurrection life, which is crucial to God's eternal purpose. This is the daily salvation from sinful behaviors. This is the much more salvation on a moment by moment basis which causes the believer to spontaneously manifest righteous acts and deeds even unconsciously, as a by-product and without strain.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-09-2006 11:37 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-09-2006 11:43 PM

Legend, Perhaps I didn't get your emphasis on the synoptics. But it doesn't matter to establish that Paul was not the first Christian. He was not. I can't see how restricting the comparison between the Pauline letters with Acts and the synoptic gospels will help to establish Paul was the first Christian.And why exclude John from the comparison anyway? Do you want to put the synoptics on one side and John and Paul on an opposing team? So I quoted John's gospel? To establish that Paul was the first Christian why is it necessary for you to exclude John's gospel from a comparison to the teaching from Paul? Well, one can always say that he doesn't believe that Christ resurrected. And one can always say that he doesn't beleive that Christ continued to minister through the apostles.I think that this question arises from your unbelief that Paul was a genuine apostle of Christ. I have no doubt at all that Paul was an apostle of Christ chosen by Him and sent by Him.As to "when?" Paul was seperated from his mother's womb."But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me that I might announce HIm as the gospel among the Gentiles ..." (Galatians 1:15,16)I believe that God seperated Paul unto this apostleship from birth. And of course I believe that God was in Christ and that Christ is God incarnate. And you sound like someone who goes to watch TV to get his "in depth" understanding of Christian theology. You might try taking the time to read through the New Testament in a prayerful way.I go to the Bible to derive my understanding of it. I don't like to substitute in depth study of Exodus with watching "The Ten Commandments." And I don't derive all my understanding of the gospel of Christ by tuning into Reverend Ick or any number of other religious entertainers.Basically I think you're setting up a strawman dispute. It should be pretty easy to knock it down. Go ahead. Okay, no seriously. Want to give it another try? I'm open to discussion. Do you mean what do I mean by objective verses subjective righteousness? The New Testament is about Christ, the resurrected Lord and Savior, living within the believers. Since you don't like John, I will illustrate this point from the synoptics:Matthew says that Jesus is "Emmanual ... God with us." (Matt. 1:23). But at the end of Matthew's gospel is doesn't record Jesus going away at all. It speaks of no ascension or departure of "Emmanuel - God with us." Rather the resurrected Christ says - "And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt.28:20)He continues to be "God with us,"the believers, the disciples, until consummation of the age. The resurrected Christ is still with us. He is still God with us.Now you may object that that doesn't say that Christ is in the disciples. And you want to keep John's gospel out of the discussion for some strange reason which may suppose argues in your favor that Paul was the first Christian.But these compliants won't negate that "God with us" in Matthew is the Christ Who comes into His disciples to be their inward empowering to live righteously.In Luke 21:15 Jesus tells His disciples that He will give them a mouth to answer their persecutors. So they need no be concerned how they are to answer. For spontaneously He will give them an answer as to how they should speak:"Settle it therefore in your hearts not to take thought beforehand how to reply in defense. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all those opposing you will not be able to resist or refute"This surely shows that "Emmanuel - God with ..." the disciples until the end of the age, will also impart wisdom to them and furnish them with spontaneous reactions which will be adaquate for them to make a good Christian testimony. It is good to consult also the gospel of John to get clarity on these things. That is if one truly wants to know what the New Testament teaches.In the parallel passage in Mark 13:11 we see that Jesus gives the disciples this wisdom and this mouth by means of the activity of the Holy Spirit - "but whatever is given to you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who are speaking, but the Holy Spirit."You see Legend? This is all quite subjective and spontaneous. The Holy Spirit gives wisdom to the disciples and the Holy Spirit gives them their reaction to persecution. How much more the Holy Spirit will empower the disciples to live as Christ taught by means of the God Who is with them even to the consummation of the age.So the synoptics teach of Christ resurrested, Christ with the disciples, Christ supplying them wisdom and a mouth to react in difficult situations. This would amount to a spontaneous manifestation of subjective righteousness flowing out of the present Emmanuel - God with us.I will have to continue latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Legend, For an example of positional righteousness from the synoptic gospels I would point out to you Christ instituting the new covenant in His blood:"And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you, For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matt. 26:27,28)And the companion passage in Luke 22:19,20:"And He took a loaf and gave thanks, and He broke it and gave it to them, saying, This is My body which is being given for you; do this in rememberance of Me. And similiarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant established in My blood, which is being poured out for you."These passages show that Christ allowed His body to be broken and His blood to be poured out on the cross, for the forgiveness of our sins. That means our sins are dealt with through His death on our behalf to render us righteous before God. By accepting Him as our Lord and Savior His blood cleanses us from our sins and places us in a righteous standing before God.Dispositionally in our personality we may not have changed except that we have humbled our selves to realize that the blood of Jesus Christ has been poured out on our behalf to erase the record of transgressions before God. Believing in Christ we are then in a righteous position.Now simply being forgiven is wonderful. But this alone does not meet the need of "the kingdom of the heavens." We need to have our daily living be a kingdom of God living under His governmental administration. There is a need for dispositional righteousness in our character. Here is one place we see Christ's call for us to enter into His kingdom dispositionally as well as positionally:"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:20)We must have Christ wrought upon our personality until our righteous behavior surpasses that of the superficial and hypocritical scribes and Pharisees. God looks for a genuine righteousness flowing our of our characters which is not a play acting or religious performance. In fact the constituents of the kingdom of the heavens must have the highest level of morality on the earth.So you see His blood deals with the record of our sins to positional us in a objective righteous standing before God.And His presence must wrought into our beings a dispositional righteous living which results in the highest level of morality on the earth. The synoptic gospels reveal both aspects of God's new testament economy.It is also helpful to get clarity on both of these two aspects of salvation through the writings of John and the epistles of Paul.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.