God lurks among us...at EVC

At first I thought to myself devil's advocate, then I just thought devil, then I thought that God would just like to stir the pot as much as He can and then it would be someone controversial.But then I thought, hey, If the Christian God exists, then the Holy Spirit dwells in all of us, so we are all God in a sense.

Jesus said we must be baptised by water, and by spirit. That doesn't mean the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell within all of us. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts us when we do something wrong. That is the big mistake that the churches make today, they are to busy convicting instead of loving. mo=moment? EvC Forum: Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?I replied to you a few days ago. What does *-ed mean? My prayer is that nobody is in a category. We are headed for the same place, even though our paths are different.
In this response:
EvC Forum: How do we classfiy people?
A question of how do we classify people, I claim that we shouldn't. I am not for categorizing people. It's like judging them, or it can lead to that. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you want to, that is fine. We will either get along or we won't. which is irrelevant to what we believe.

We really only have the bible when trying to determine who gets into heaven or not.If we are to be in Christ to get in, well then He came to save, not to judge.Also Christians are hung up on John 3:16But John 3:16 is the trial, John 3:19-21 is the verdict.
I believe the first 17 years of my life is best represented by John 3:21 and at no point did I feel like I was going to hell. I still don't.We are not alone in this life, and I believe every word spoken has an accountability factor to it. If anything I could go to hell for something I said to another person that might keep them from knowing the Lord. Not for my own faith.

Your response describes exactly what I am talking about.
Who told you your not going to hell? Jesus himself, or your interpretation of the bible? Romans explains to be with Christ, you need to be in Christ. Inother words it's a constant thing, not a one time decision. Part of being in Christ is not judging, but saving. I agree, but what I was saying is that looking back on it, even though I wasn't even really sure about God, and knowing what I know now, I don't think I would have gone to hell has I died before "accepting Christ" or being baptized in the Spirit. That is a wrong assumption. I would not be able to save anyone, but I might help keep them from it. Or at least from the "name".All representatives of Christ can be guilty of this.If someone is seeking God, and they go to a church and get hosed by a preist or scammed by a minister, isn't it understandable to be confused about God for awhile? Aren't these people held accountable for their actions?

Please explain.. Many are called, but few are choosen, or one could say that few choose.I agree coming to God is not merely a human effort. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Awesome!! I agree. Well, that's what I am saying.It's not the name that saves us, but the what Jesus did, and what you do in your heart. That does not release me from any accountability. Are you talking about the preist or the person he affected?

Sorry I didn't respond here, I was typing my long response, and I had to go, and never posted it. Then someone shut my computer down, lol. If you don't choose to reject the gospel, then you have choosen to accept it.i don't think that is worded correctly. Maybe you meant, no matter what you cannot change what Jesus did for us? I believe there is a bible verse, which I cannot find right now, that explains coming to know the Lord is not merely a human effort. My doctrine does not include who will, and who will not go to heaven.Since Jesus came and changed the world, our bodies are now the temple, and the Holy Spirit dwells within all of us.To what extent relies on God, and how you keep your temple. Initially God may call on you, but then it's up to you, to keep the temple clean, so that God may dwell there. This has nothing to do with going to heaven or not.Surely there are levels in heaven, as we store up treasures here on earth.Too many Christians focus on John 3:16, and think that by accepting the name of Jesus, that's what gets you into heaven. I like to focus more on John 3:21, which focuses more on the Spirit that is in you.Some people call it "the greater good". Maybe that's because the church has ruined "the name of Jesus" for them. So when they get to the pearly gates, God will say, you denied Jesus, but then they will say, I followed what was in my heart, and who knows, maybe that's good enough, because what was in there hearts is what Jesus deposited for us. A just judge would judge us based on what we know in our hearts, not a set of rules. Isn't that all relative to each individual? I am sure there arepeople who think that way. Ever see the green miracle rag paid programming on TV? Yes, He tore the vail, and you no longer need to go to a temple and make a sacrifice to talk to God. God is in us now, we are the temple. I don't know about climbing stairs, but what you do on earth will be judged, but only by God, not by us.22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,Righteousness from God through faith.What is faith?
How do you believe?

Ok, fair enough:
Matthew 7:
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.John 7:17
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.1 Peter 4:18
And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.Matthew 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.There is many more. I am in no way saying that God does not call you, or by oursleves we can be saved, it is in conjunction with Jesus that we are saved, by our belief, and by what He did for us. But clearly there is a task involved for us. Mr. Baker is going to heaven?See, this is where I have a problem. I agree with that verse, but I believe it only concerns myself, not what I think of others. I explained it. He sent the Holy Spirit, and the vail was torn. Why do we have to put deeds of the flesh if we are already saved by Jesus? According to what you are saying?I did mention that our bodies are temples. I never said it wasn't a temple anymore. Yes, I agree with that. Define believe. Us, is all of us, the human race.Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."As far as I know, this means all people. That is why I think we all know right and wrong to a point. But then there is deception, it's so sneaky. But the truth is/was there all along, Jesus sent it. That's all well and good, but it doesn't seem to cover certain scenerios. Example.Someone raised Catholic, gets molested by a priest, he then determines that the christian God is not the real God, but he knows in his heart that there is a God. He just can't relate to the name "Jesus". Is he going to hell now?

Yes that is what I mean by vail torn. Well that is what I am saying, how does one get to know Christ? Are we not to go out and make dicsiples of the world?
What happens if we do the opposite?Why do we have to make dicsiples, if God is the only one who can call us? Sure it does, you just admitted it, it's part of the package deal. It is also letters to specific churches with specific problems.The rest of your post, I don't really understand what you are trying to say. I think a lot of what we are saying is the same thing, except, you seem to think that only God can call us, and that we have nothing to do with that process.The problem I have with that, is that you now put yourself above all others who have not been called by God, or leave them wondering why God hasn't called them. That seems to be the opposite of a humble spirit. You also make it pointless to go and preach the gospel then. If only God calls us, then why bother?Please explain to me how God called you, so I can understand better. And if you like we can put this conversation in the great debate.

In some ways I agree with you, but I think this statement is mostly made in ignorance.Clearly God gives us choices to make, and some kind of free will. Just because He knows what will happen, doesn't mean that we are void of these choises. You pretend to understand how He lives in His demension, and how it relates to ours. You may be right, but you may be wrong, I may be crazy (but it's a lunitic your looking for).Id our free will limited to just decideing if it's from God or not? Or where all the free will decisions made at one point in time, and now we are just playing them out? Just what exactly is the corelation between His ways, and our ways? For His ways are not our ways.Believeing there are no real decisions to make, and they are all made already may even be a trap of the enemy of your soul. Who knows?Yet, you wake up every morning and make decisions without thinking of all this. Why bother if He is omnipotant, and can call whoever he pleases? Yes, I know, that is what I have been saying. I find that whole paragraph judgemental.Define salvation.
Describe conversion.
Describe why you think you have the right to claim you are saved, and someone else isn't. (don't just describe why you are saved) I disagree. According to your own logic, God will use us to bring forth the gospel. Then the devil can use us to counter that.
If God is truely in charge of everyting, then it's all from Him, so some are used for honor, and some are used for dishonor. No we don't agree.I have a real problem with you saying only those who receive His spirit, like we are special or something. God loved the world.The Holy Spirit dwells in everyone, He is the one who convicts people when they do wrong.They may not be blessed by the spirit if they are living sinful lives, or the spirit may not be activated in them by ways of the gifts, but it is there. This statement assumes we have no interaction with anyone on earth? If they think that their salvation depends on works, then they are not really in Christ, just like someone who denies Christ, both are guilty. Leaving very few who will go to heaven, but God loves the world. Did He create all of us to burn in hell Is this some kind of evil joke? It has to make sense somehow.Before I felt the Holy Spirit, I never felt like I was going to hell, I still feel that way, and now that I believe I have felt this Holy Spirit, I do not think I was wrong.Being saved is a continuing process, not a one time decision. With true acceptance of Christ comes true repentance. One cannot go on sinning, and believing in Christ, and be saved, can they?If they can, then there is the possibility that people who don't believe in the "name of Jesus" are going to heaven also.Who are we to judge? Yes, a gift. Pretty good answer. Again that is why I presented the molesting preists scenerio. A person could be hardened by the church, and blame God because they are now confused, and they got confused while looking for God.Charles knight may have been a good example of that. He was in search of something, but according to his experiences, the "christian godhead" wasn't God. I remember that post!Funny I was responding to charles knight, and I just mentioned his name before reading that. coinsidence!! Well I felt the Holy Spirit at 38, so we got something in common.Peace out, enjoy the weekend.

I don't think so, then your assuming.Sure God knows everything before it happens, but take a look at the old testament, and how God made people play things out in our time. People had opportunities to change their minds, and change nations, from their predestined course. He gave them many choices to make.So just because God knows all, doesn't mean that this thing called life will not play out in our time. At some point during creation, the choices were made, whether it was in time, or some other way. So then if the gospel can be delivered through man, so can other things.If God called you to deliver the message, and you didn't deliver it, wouldn't you expect to be accountable for it, and it's damaging affects? As long as your not judging who is saved or not.Does the verse: 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Free us from accountability of our actions?Also if God hardens people, then who gets into heaven? Ok, now we are gtting somewhere. I understand. You are led by the Spirit. The Spirit gives you wisdom, if you are paying attention. But you said earlier that I made a good point in saying that a just God would judge us based on what we know.Isn't what we know based on what is around us?I believe God puts His laws on our minds and hearts, sure, but they get decieved, and we could be living decieved lives. Are we responsible for our own deception?For 38 years, I wasn't sure about God, I really didn't know, or have a fair chance to know, so I had to go by my heart, and what I was taught.I made a lot of mistakes along the way, and I regret them, but only to a point. Because I believe those very mistakes is what made God known to me. It was all God's will.But that doesn't free those people who kept me from God, from their accountability, or does it free those who battle with me now. Unless all the blame falls on the devil. With free will comes responsibility. I am saying different. I say both can lead you to God.
Nothing happens except by the will of the Father. That must include evil.How can one appreciate the light, unless they have been in the dark awhile?Look what happen to job, and you start to understand where I am coming from. I guess so, you could say it that way. I might be mis-understanding you, but Satan does not have any real power.The gifts are ours, God does not take them back. It's up to us how to use them. Satan can only accuse us, and try to decieve us. Yea, how does he make those choices, based on what? What about the people He choose to harden? But if my whole life was a chain of events that led me to be saved, then I was being saved all along. I think not. Your example was someone who says Jesus is a devil. I underatsnd the metaphore, but how did he come to a point in his life where he could say Jesus is a devil? Wouldn't a just judge take that into account? Wouldn't he make those people accountable for the things they did to this person to make him say such a thing?People sometimes hate me, mostly just in here, or hate what I say. But I don't hate them back. I see them the way God sees them, I ask for that from God. God gives me revelation and shows me how and why they got that way.I can't judge where people are at completely. I can only say for myself, at this point in time, and life that if I was to deny God, and start doing bad things, I would probably be sent to Hell.So not knowing, allows me to put it in God's hands. I will just do my part, and not even think about who is going, and who is not. Yes, ok, but take into account that God will harden who's heart's He wants to, and by your own admission, people can be pulled away from God by the actions of others, then I will not judge who is, who isn't and who is on the way to be.I believe there are people who know the gospel, but have suffcient reasons not to believe in it. Which leaves us in a very complicated world, which it is.

No. I was always a good person, and I believed in the "greater good".I am a bit stubborn, and I think God had to use the things in my life to show me His ways, so that I could understand. I am not done learning.

Yes, we agree on that. Where we start to differ is you saying only God can call us. If God didn't predestine our thought, then we can choose to look for Him. Doesn't matter the mechanics of how it all goes down.If you mean only God can call us because He created everything, then that is different, and doesn't really portray a clear picture. I am not saying you will be damned, or the person you are supposed to talk to.A persons salvation cannot rest on you, but the lack there-of can be credited back to you. It's all about our obedience to God. Sure He will forgive us, but like you said, we still have to be accountable to some degree while we are here on earth. But what about the person you hurt, or drove away from God.Since our thoughts are not pre-destined, then if we choose to hurt someone, surely a just God would take that into account.I am not saying He couldn't divinely intervine, but why call some and not others. That doesn't seem fair or just to me.Sometimes I feel like God said ok, here is the earth, here are the rules, and then He tossed us the keys. We have to be responsibile for our actions, the earth, and the human race. This thought process goes against liberals, and conservatives. I don't think Jesus would have been either. That's why I don't consider myself either.Just observe everyone here in this forum who doesn't believe in God. Look at the spirit of their words, and why they don't believe. There is obviously hurt in some of those words, I can feel it. There is obviously deception in others. Is it completely their fault that they do not understand?I am not trying to give everyone a free ticket here, just pointing out how it could be for some. Sure there are those who blatenly deny it, even after having felt it.When God blesses you with a little bit of His presence, there is no way you can deny it, and in an instant you start to understand, and are filled with revelation. For people who haven't felt this, how could they know? I didn't. I only had my heart to go by.I am sure no-one here would want to go to hell. I think everyone in this forum is a canditate for heaven. Once they die, and then see that there is a God, I am sure there would be immediate repentance for them. But then it's too late? There are stories in the OT where man has got angry with God, and more or less plea bargin with Him.I agree on the puny fist thing, but our anger comes from lack of knowing Him. But what does that mean exactly?
Christ came and said a lot of different things.
What exactly is it to believe?Since we are judged with what is in our hearts, it may be different than what comes from our mouths. Thatis debatable, since jew and gentile are equal now, we are decendants of Isreal. I can judge myself.
I may be ignorant, but then that is the way He made me. One could argue that our only free will is whether to choose if it's all from God or not.If God is omnipotent, and knows everything that will happen, and nothing happens except by His will, then it all falls on Him. Like you said, it's His creation, He can do what He wants with it. I think we tempt ourselves more than Satan.But I am full aware of the attacks of the enemy, as I am a leader in the church, under attack all the time.But remember, God created Satan too. All Satan can do to us, is tempt us, and lie to us. But I didn'tEven still, I really don't think I would have went to hell. Not according to how I delt with life, in my heart. How I answered my conscience. How could one possibely hear the call through all that mess? I can't qualify that, or judge that. Oops, sorry. I enjoyed it.Maybe a topic that describes just what exactly it is to "be in Christ".