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Author Topic:   Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6468 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 132 of 172 (305933)
04-22-2006 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
04-18-2006 6:15 AM


Going back to the OP
quote:
My time here has exposed me to people who hold the view that salvation is achieved by something other than just faith in the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ (salvation by faith alone).
Dismissing works can also get into something that, IMHO, is intellectually ridiculous.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26 (KJV)
A Blue Letter Bible commentary on Jehovah's Witnesses' appeal to James 2:26 as a Bible teaching that salvation is through faith and works leads to John 6:29:
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
(NKJV)
I think that the BLB discussion gets us into a circular situation. James says you must have faith and works. The BLB response is that the "works" are simply faith. In other words, unless I'm terribly mistaken, to be saved you must have faith and . . . faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 6:15 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 2:26 PM DeclinetoState has replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6468 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 152 of 172 (305987)
04-22-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
04-22-2006 2:26 PM


Re: Going back to the OP
quote:
James says you must have faith and works
No he doesn't. He says "faith without works is dead" If there are no works then the faith is dead.

James 2:24 (KJV):
quote:
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Faith and works are separate things, according to James. A man could have faith only, but he would not be justified. It is by works he is justified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 2:26 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 6:25 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6468 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 157 of 172 (306005)
04-22-2006 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
04-22-2006 2:26 PM


Sorry for making another reply
Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread, but at James 2:24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. I found this:
Wesley's Notes on James
2:24 Ye see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only - St. Paul, on the other band, declares, A man is justified by faith, and not by works, Rom 3:28. And yet there is no contradiction between the apostles: because, They do not speak of the same faith: St. Paul speaking of living faith; St. James here, of dead faith. They do not speak of the same works: St. Paul speaking of works antecedent to faith; St. James, of works subsequent to it.
What Wesley is saying here is . . . I have no idea what he's saying. I doubt he did either. I don't know where he got the idea that James was speaking of "dead faith" vs. Paul's "living faith," or where he got the idea Paul was speaking of works prior to faith while James was writing of works that came after faith. It seems that James said you had to have both, whereas Paul said faith alone was sufficient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 2:26 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
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