Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,924 Year: 4,181/9,624 Month: 1,052/974 Week: 11/368 Day: 11/11 Hour: 2/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Define "Kind"
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 205 of 300 (290690)
02-26-2006 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Faith
02-26-2006 5:20 PM


Re: Further clarification
quote:
Everybody works under the ToE, they aren't in the business of challenging it.
This is just plain wrong.
A scientist makes a name for himself by challenging and correcting a flaw in an existing scientific body of thought. The scientific method is all about challenging, testing, and trying to disprove the truth of a particular hypothesis. In fact, it's impossible to prove that any scientific theory is true. The most that can be said is that it is generally accepted as accurate in the scientific community because it has withstood every attempt to challenge and disprove it. And that's why evolution is commonly accepted in the scientific community.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 5:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 6:20 PM subbie has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 208 of 300 (290716)
02-26-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by nator
02-26-2006 6:44 PM


Re: Further clarification
schrafinator, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute.
***DISCLAIMER***
I do not believe any of the following. I am proposing it in an effort to see what direction the conversation takes. Please do not hold my statement of any of the following ideas against me.
There can be no doubt that organisms change from generation to generation. It has been seen in the lab and in the natural world. However, there are limits to the changes that we have seen. Populations of fruit flies can be isolated and change in different ways to the point where the two separate populations no longer interbreed. This is, as I understand it, the definition of speciation. However, they are still fruit flies.
There is a limit to how much an organism can change. Nobody has demonstrated, either in a lab or in the natural world, that a dog can change into a cat. Now, I am fully aware that that is not how evolutionary theory says that these particular animals evolved, but I am offering that as an illustration of my point. One kind of organism cannot change to another kind, even though differences can become significant enough to result in speciation.
We cannot at this time fully define what is meant by "Kind," but it refers to the observed general tendency of daughter populations to resemble parent populations. We do not yet know exactly what the limits of this change are. That is, as yet, an unsolved question. But many sciences begin with somewhat vague terms that attempt to describe an observed phenomenon, with the specifics of the term fleshed out more fully as the science develops.
Can you come up with a real world example where we have observed evolution, either in the natural world or a laboratory setting, where the change from the parent population to the daughter population is so dramatic that it is obvious at first glance that they two popluations are different animals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by nator, posted 02-26-2006 6:44 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 7:20 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 210 of 300 (290725)
02-26-2006 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
02-26-2006 7:20 PM


Re: Further clarification
Before you thank me, keep in mind that I don't really believe that.
Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing scientific about starting from the position that everything in the bible is literally true, then running around and trying to twist all the evidence you see to fit in with that assumption.
This message has been edited by subbie, 02-26-2006 07:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 7:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 7:28 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 212 of 300 (290729)
02-26-2006 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
02-26-2006 7:28 PM


Re: Further clarification
I really didn't think I was being rude. I certainly had no intent to. Trust me, I know how to be rude when I want to, particularly regarding this topic. My conclusion is that either missed the winkie icon in my topic or didn't appreciate the significance of it, or you have incredibly thin skin. Either way, I won't lose any sleep over it.
The "twisting" I was talking about wasn't the bible, but the physical universe. Creos take incredibly compelling evidence of evolution (I'll mention just Archaeopteryx as an example) and either ignore it, ignore the obvious implications of it, or bend it so far out of shape that one can't even identify what they are talking about.
Have a nice day. ;-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 7:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 02-26-2006 9:52 PM subbie has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 217 of 300 (291018)
02-28-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by ReverendDG
02-26-2006 10:13 PM


Re: Further clarification
quote:
[Kind is] the limited classifcation of animals based on what people 3 thousand years ago understood, which our current classifications overwrite....
No, I think there's more to it than that.
There can be different species of cats, dogs, birds, horses, etc. And, through descent with modification, new species of any animals can arise. But cats only beget cats, dogs only beget dogs, birds only beget birds......
Creos seem to argue that, since we've never actually see one "kind" of animal evolve into another "kind," "microevolution" can be taken as an accepted fact, but there's no evidence of "macroevolution."
Science tries to speak in terms with very specific and clear meanings. Sometimes these meanings change over time. "Planet" used to refer to certain heavenly bodies that were believed to revolve around the earth. If you were to try to explain that the Earth is a planet, your words would be nonsensical. When the concept of the heliocentric system was accepted, "planet" came to mean certain bodies revolving around the sun.
In every day language, we use the word "kind" all the time without there being a single, clearly-defined meaning. If someone were to ask you, "What kind of pet do you have?" you would have no trouble understanding what they are asking, and could easily answer, "I have a dog."
The reason that creos' use of the word "kind" without giving a precise definition is a problem is because creos are notoriously slippery. They ask for transitional animals, we give them Archie. That isn't good enough for them, because Archie had fully developed feathers. "Where is the transition from no feathers to full feathers?" Why, we didn't provide a transitional animal, we've merely doubled our trouble, because now there are two gaps to fill.
Perhaps the attack on the creo term "kind" should be two-fold: continue to demand a specific definition, but at the same time, provide examples of clear transitional series between different species that are obviously a different "kind," no matter how that term is defined.
I know full well that we will never convince creos like Faith that evolution is a fact. She has made it clear that, for her, all answers begin and end in the bible as she interprets it. And that's fine. She's entitled to live her life as she chooses, no skin off my nose. But the fact of the matter is that most people in this country do not look at the world that way. The percentage of people who reject evolution outright because of biblical literalism is quite small. The battle, instead, is directed to those who want science taught in school, even if it does (seem to) conflict with stories from the bible.
Americans love to be "fair," to let all sides be heard. What we need to do it make it clear that, based on the evidence we have at our disposal right now, there really is only one side to this question, from a scientific point of view.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by ReverendDG, posted 02-26-2006 10:13 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Brad McFall, posted 03-01-2006 7:51 AM subbie has replied
 Message 224 by ReverendDG, posted 03-02-2006 3:08 AM subbie has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 219 of 300 (291261)
03-01-2006 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Brad McFall
03-01-2006 7:51 AM


Re: Further clarification
You're a speech writer for President Dumbya, right?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Brad McFall, posted 03-01-2006 7:51 AM Brad McFall has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 223 of 300 (291328)
03-01-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by nator
03-01-2006 7:47 PM


Re: Further clarification
You're jumping the gun on Faith. She didn't concede there can be no definition. If you look at her message 209 in this thread, she seems to be adopting my devil's advocate position that there is something to the idea of "kind" not changing, but the exact parameters are something that have not yet been determined.
Care to take a stab at the question I posed at the end of question 208?
What kind of pet do you have, schrafinator?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by nator, posted 03-01-2006 7:47 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Brad McFall, posted 03-02-2006 6:58 AM subbie has not replied
 Message 226 by nator, posted 03-02-2006 7:17 AM subbie has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 237 of 300 (291469)
03-02-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by ramoss
03-02-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Further clarification
Can you give us a definition and usage analysis for the word ?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by ramoss, posted 03-02-2006 10:57 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ramoss, posted 03-02-2006 1:44 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 239 of 300 (291512)
03-02-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ramoss
03-02-2006 1:44 PM


Re: Further clarification
I fully understand the point you were making to Faith, and also appreciate the signficance of it. I was simply curious about the meaning of the word you provided. Thanks.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ramoss, posted 03-02-2006 1:44 PM ramoss has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 258 of 300 (291862)
03-03-2006 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by docpotato
03-03-2006 2:24 PM


Further muddification
From dictionary.com:
kind2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (knd)
n.
1. A group of individuals linked by traits held in common.
2. A particular variety; a sort: What kind of soap do you like best?
3. Fundamental, underlying character as a determinant of the class to which a thing belongs; nature or essence.
4. A doubtful or borderline member of a given category: fashioned a kind of shelter; a kind of bluish color.
5. Archaic. Manner.
Idioms:
all kinds of Informal
Plenty of; ample: We have all kinds of time to finish the job.
in kind
1. With produce or commodities rather than with money: pay in kind.
2. In the same manner or with an equivalent: returned the slight in kind.
kind of Informal
Rather; somewhat: I'm kind of hungry.
of a kind
Of the same kind; alike: My father and my uncle are two of a kind.
kind1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (knd)
adj. kind·er, kind·est
1. Of a friendly, generous, or warm-hearted nature.
2. Showing sympathy or understanding; charitable: a kind word.
3. Humane; considerate: kind to animals.
4. Forbearing; tolerant: Our neighbor was very kind about the window we broke.
5. Generous; liberal: kind words of praise.
6. Agreeable; beneficial: a dry climate kind to asthmatics.
kind
adj 1: having or showing a tender and considerate and helpful nature; used especially of persons and their behavior; "kind to sick patients"; "a kind master"; "kind words showing understanding and sympathy"; "thanked her for her kind letter" [ant: unkind] 2: liberal; "kind words of praise" 3: conducive to comfort; beneficial; "the genial sunshine"; "a kind climate"; "hot summer pavements are anything but kind to the feet" [syn: genial] 4: expressing sympathy 5: characterized by mercy, and compassion; "compassionate toward disadvantaged people"; "kind to animals"; "a humane judge" [syn: merciful] 6: agreeable; "a dry climate kind to asthmatics" 7: helpful to other people; "helping an old lady with her bundles was his kind deed for the day" 8: tolerant and forgiving under provocation; "our neighbor was very kind about the window our son broke" [syn: tolerant] 9: showing consideration and anticipation of needs; "it was thoughtful of you to bring flowers"; "a neighbor showed thoughtful attention" [syn: thoughtful] 10: generously responsive; "good-hearted but inept efforts to help"; "take a kindly interest"; "a kindly gentleman"; "an openhearted gift to charity" [syn: good-hearted, kindly, openhearted] n : a category of things distinguished by some common characteristic or quality; "sculpture is a form of art"; "what kinds of desserts are there?" [syn: sort, form, variety]

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by docpotato, posted 03-03-2006 2:24 PM docpotato has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 262 of 300 (291880)
03-03-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
03-03-2006 3:46 PM


Kind of a red herring
While I do think it's important to press creos on a definition of "kind," I think it's more important to keep in mind the evidence we have that shows the dramatic changes in organisms that evolution has produced.
For example, archeopteryx is a transition between reptiles and birds. For the creo position that "kinds" are fixed to hold water, they will need a definition that includes birds and reptiles as the same kind.
The ability to define terms is crucial for intelligent discourse to take place. But don't let's lose sight of the fact that, whatever definition of "kind" the creos come up with, assuming they do, the fossil record alone is replete with evidence showing that organisms have evolved across species, genus, family, and order lines. That is the real point.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 03-03-2006 3:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 03-03-2006 7:30 PM subbie has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024