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Author | Topic: What we must accept if we accept evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What it says is that consciousness evolved. Now how the physical can become spiritual is a bit of a problem. The "spiritual" is not natural--it's supernatural. So the supernatural did not come from nature. Not to be picky I hope, but strictly speaking, the spiritual is no less natural than the physical. It's another part of nature, part of the created order. Strictly speaking, although informally we refer to the spiritual realms, angels and demons and so on, as "supernatural," the only thing that is truly supernatural (above nature, above Creation) is God Himself. Your point is still valid though, as far as I can see. Nobody has yet made a believable case for sentient spirit's derivation from matter.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I remember discussing that thoughts might not be physical. But a deduction is not a thought, it's an action. It's not a thought? How can that be? Aren't we using the term in its most general sense to refer to what the mind does? It thinks. That includes deductions. We're also using "mind" in the very broad sense of including all the incorporeal parts of our selves. The *I* or the self or the soul. It also includes imaginations and daydreams and whimsies. All these things are "thoughts" in the general sense it's been used in this thread. Or so I thought. Anyway, how does it make sense to talk of an "action" that has no physicality, no impact on physicality, no substance, no body, no extension in space, no identifiable existence in itself except through recognition by other sentient beings? What does it act upon? It seems to me this idea does violence to language and to sanity. What is the source of this idea? Parasomnium said something similar, but it just makes no sense. Never mind. I just blurted this out, but I'm going to bow out of this thread as it's getting close to the end -- except eventually to answer some posts that were addressed to me earlier. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-27-2006 07:06 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thinking is clearly an action. Neuroscientists can observe the physical activity of the neurons during thinking. Deduction is an example of thinking, so is also physical action. Thinking is not synonymous with the activity of neurons no matter how consistently that activity can be found accompanying thinking.
The problem with "thought", is that it is a kind of abstraction that we invent to meet the needs of language. It is because it is some kind of abstraction, that it is not made of stuff. This is nonsense, nwr. The term "thought" is necessary to describe the experience we all have of thinking thoughts, not an invention to meet the needs of language. Words were invented to meet our own practical needs of communicating necessary ideas to others. Language is the vehicle for meeting that need. Nobody gives a rap about the "needs of language" for pete's sake. If it doesn't serve our practical needs, begone with it. But I said I wouldn't answer. I've got to stop making promises.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I haven't claimed it occurs without neuronal activity. It's irrelevant to the point I'm making.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why don't you read the thread for a change, Schraf?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
"What is involved with thinking other than neuronal activity" would be a rabbit trail at this point in the thread, which you ought to know if you really have read it. It didn't appear you had the slightest idea what is on the thread. However I apologize if I am wrong about that. Nevertheless I don't want to go down this trail.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I understand. I just felt obligated to make the academic point from a Christian point of view.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
"I feel so special and superior and chosen because I am a Born Again christian, so I'm going to go to Heaven no matter what and all of these other heathens who aren't born again are going to burn in Hell."
In my view, if I were a believer, that would be blasphemy. Thank you. It IS blasphemy. A major tenet of the faith is that it is GIVEN to us for NO merit of our own. There's nothing better about any of us than any unbeliever. In fact Jesus called us the "offscouring of the world." The dregs. We just want you saved WITH us. Actually both Moses and Paul said they wished they could give up their salvation for the sake of the unbelieving people, if it meant they could be saved in their place.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Many of us have doubts about our salvation. Falling into sin certainly produces doubts. But there's nothing humble about such doubts. John in particular writes that he is giving us the foundations for knowing we are saved. We are exhorted to test ourselves to be sure we are saved. The term "cocksure" doesn't apply in any case, but "assurance of salvation" is definitely biblical and highly desirable.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You think right.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Probably but I have to be careful about that. She had no cause for doubt, as one in sin has. I'd have to think about it more.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
'Course there is this little problem with sin that it has a way of dulling you spiritually so you start rationalizing it away
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Not getting anything Ian. But I'm trying to learn how to be in Chat and on the board at the same time and keep booting myself off the internet and driving jar and Asgara nuts. Na, they're patient. But that may be why I can't get it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
THAT is on topic?
abe: Sorry, I'll be good. No more post wasting. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-29-2006 01:55 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I mean, isn't it vitally important that you exist now because of evolution not only because of where you came from, but where you and your descendents are going. Doesn't that make your life more significant? Doesn't that place vital importance upon you being here now? You are the result of an extensive and ancient gene pool and it is important that you add your own to it. Amazing what can be said with a straight face. This OUGHT to be lines for a comic routine. I guess we can learn to accept anything if we work at it. Reminds me of a little comedy routine a friend would do -- Variations on behavioristic desensitization routines, for instance as applied to Fear of Driving -- or fear of having an accident while driving.
quote: I'm sure it was funnier the way he did it. But all this insistence that the principles of evolution don't diminish us as human beings, how we just have to learn to take comfort and pride in our place in "an extensive and ancient gene pool" reminds me of the same kind of thinking. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-29-2006 04:44 PM
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