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Author | Topic: What if God foreknew human reactions? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
I'm not sure I'm completely following you...
I am certainly rejecting fatalism, and I would have to qualify determinism. I do not believe that creation of the universe entailed a mapping out of each event. I think that there are many events that are not inevitable, but determined by choice. That God has seen these choices does not remove the choice itself. What if God had exacted creation, but then turned his back so that he couldn't see how it had turned out... how would that change anything?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
But God CAN'T see our future choices unless they are fixed and inevitable. And that amounts to determinism or fatalism. If the future is not fixed it is unknowable in principle.
If I look away after dropping a rock on someone's head I am still responsible for my action and the entirely forseeable consequences - even if I choose not to watch the inevitable consequences play themselves out.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
But God CAN'T see our future choices unless they are fixed and inevitable. I admit that this can be difficult to visualise but you have to totally divorce God's time from our own. Saying God is "outside" our time does not do justice to the situation. We are 4-d paths through this universe, and we choose how these paths meander, by making choices at each point. God just sees the whole path, the string of choices.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Crashfrog writes: This is why I say that you believe in human "wisdom". You do not believe in God. He is a creation of your mind for you, thus you determine His attributes, limitations, and character. God could make a mind so thick that He could not get through to it. Does this place a limit on God, or an oasis of delusion for that mind? If God not only knows what you're going to do, but because he is also the creator, created you knowing that that's what you were going to do, God made the choice, not you.One more qustion: Could God make a creation that never had to see Him? If so, was it Gods fault that humans freely reject Him? If so, lets imagine a scale known as the scope of human wisdom.Enter the question, "Knowledge of God." Subjective, right? Some subjects would say that God has a 0% chance of existance since they never saw Him. Others would say that He is real and would declare that 100%! Still others would be uncerrtain of either measure. About this scale: Who sets the rules of definition?Human observation of nature? All possible degrees of probability? Can one human be said to have a more accurate guage than another human? If a five year old "knows" that they have a monster under the bed, it is usually easy to teach them. If a U.F.O> abductee swears up and down that they were abducted, it is somewhat harder, often, to deprogram their belief. You know how impossible it is to change MY beliefs. Perhaps you are the same way. On the meter, is there any greater difference between 0% and 100%than between either value and any value in between? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-15-2005 02:55 PM
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
There's no problem here. We each follow an absolutely fixed path, which was laid out at the moment of creation. There is no contradiction between what you are saying and my point.
It is a matter of logical necessity that the future can only be known if it is fixed.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
There's no problem here. We each follow an absolutely fixed path, which was laid out at the moment of creation. There is no contradiction between what you are saying and my point. True, but my argument is that this does not imply fatalism. We are still in the moment of creation. In fact, we are part of the very creative process, defining our own paths, beginning to end. Our paths are our choice, not God's.
It is a matter of logical necessity that the future can only be known if it is fixed. Well, we are keeping to safe traditional views of time evolution so I will agree.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
This is why I say that you believe in human "wisdom". That's not a response to my post.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
I mean, can he allow himself to not know which path you're gonna choose so that he's giving you free will?DS writes:
Foreknowledge itself is irrelevant.Catholic Scientist writes: Not to me it isn't. *sigh*Can't you follow a line of discussion? The presence or absence of foreknowledge isn't what determines whether there's free will -- it's the nature of the future that determines that. So, taking out foreknowledge doesn't change a thing. Foreknowledge is merely an indicator that the future is set -- it's not the cause.
Catholic Scientist writes: I don't know what you mean by "the nature of the future". A set future is one that's already been written. An open future doesn't get written -- doesn't become solid -- until it becomes the past. If the future is set, then it's just like the past, which is also set. Just as you cannot change what happened yesterday, you cannot change what will happen tomorrow. What will happen is just as certain as what has happened.
Catholic Scientist writes: My point is that foreknowledge does not remove the action of choosing, because both paths are still there. You can only have foreknowledge of which path will be taken if the other paths are blocked -- if you cannot take them. If you can take multiple paths, foreknowledge is limited to 'mights'.If the probability of you taking path X is 100%, all other paths are blocked, as @ 0% probability, they're impossibilities. Catholic Scientist writes: I just disagree, in general. I was explaining a set future -- not asserting that the future was set.
Catholic Scientist writes: I just think that god can have it both ways, without limitations being put on it. It's a limitation on the future. The future cannot be both open and set. This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 09-16-2005 01:31 AM
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
although I have always believed that God knew everything! yeah, but i think we agree tha god knowing our choice/decision does not remove our choice/decision from the action. My point was that, if god is capable of anything, he should also be able to allow himself to be surprised, so to speak, by what choice we make. Like, he intentionally forgets, if he previously knew, what choice we will make in a way to allow, or grant, us free will. This way his omniscience can coexist with free will, not that it cannot in another way.
A familiar example is Abraham's "trial" when he was ordered to sacrifice Isaac again my meager attempt to understand these 'crazy', IMO, stories is going to be weak, but here goes...
But as St. Augustine points out, whatever God knew, Abraham at any rate did not know that his obedience could endure such a command until the event taught him So even thow god knows what we are going to do, we still must do them to learn, for ourselves, what we are going to do.
and the obedience which he did not know that he would choose, he cannot be said to have chosen. so we cannot say that he choose the obidience, i.e. perdestination
The reality of Abraham's obedience was the act itself; and what God knew in knowing that Abraham "would obey" was Abrahams actual obedience so, is this allowing the act to be free will, or does it still just support predestination?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Can't you follow a line of discussion? I like to think that I can.
An open future doesn't get written -- doesn't become solid -- until it becomes the past. This is how I view the future, as an open future. But allow me to get too unscientific on you and say that even when the future is open, god can know it and still allow it to be open.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Well I don't know how you'd describe a situation where the entirity of history is decided and fixed at the very start other than fatalism.
And since it is God's decision which path history follows and we have no say in that, our part in the working out is to just do what it was decided we would do. To say otherwise is to deny that even God has a real choice. And finally my point is not dependant on any particular view of time. Rather it is based on the fact that a question cannot have a single definite answer and multiple possible answers. Different views of time could assert that the future is or is not knowable but they cannot assert that it is both entirely knowable and even partially unknowable.t
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: That's not just unscientific - it's self contradictory. It can't be true.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: But allow me to get too unscientific on you and say that even when the future is open, god can know it and still allow it to be open. God can know that it's set with it still being open?
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
history is decided and fixed at the very start I don't believe it is decided and what do you mean by "very start"? Very start of what?
And since it is God's decision which path history follows Why do you say this? I don't adhere to this, although it is often a part of Christian theology.
our part in the working out is to just do what it was decided we would do But I don't believe that anything was decided for us...
And finally my point is not dependant on any particular view of time. Rather it is based on the fact that a question cannot have a single definite answer and multiple possible answers. Different views of time could assert that the future is or is not knowable but they cannot assert that it is both entirely knowable and even partially unknowable In no way am I advocating this. But this is not what I mean by you having a narrow view of time. Chuck God out, give me a time-machine, and I will know all of your future (and your past). I will know all of your choices before you make them. Did I suddenly become god-like and decide all of your choices for you? This message has been edited by cavediver, 09-16-2005 05:51 AM
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
If the future is fixed and inevitable it must be fixed from the very start of time.
In the view we are looking at God decides to create a specific universe with full knowledge of everything that will happen. In choosing that universe rather than some other (and an omnipotent God should be capable of creating ANY logically possible universe) God necessarily chooses every event that occurs in that universe. If you have a time machine then you are not placed in the position of God becaue you did not create the universe (I don't see how you can have missed the fact that I continually refer to this point). However your time machine can only work as you describe if the future is fixed.
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