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Author Topic:   What if God foreknew human reactions?
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 137 (242834)
09-13-2005 7:37 AM


I want this to go in Faith and Belief, because this topic presupposes a personal, interactive relationship with a living God.
1) In the Bible, Jesus foreknew a lot of the situational interactions with the people that He encountered. Atheistic evolutionists often presuppose that myths about "God" were constructed for a reason. This topic will explore whether God foreknew certain human reactions to various issues.
Issues such as worldwide competition and war based on distribution of resources,human psychological interactions within the species,
etc. As an aside, this topic is NOT about human outrage over why God allows pain and suffering.
Did God foreknow that Biblical literalism would be an issue? Is the Bible a stumbling block to God for some people---a fact that He foreknew?

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Brian, posted 09-14-2005 4:53 PM Phat has not replied
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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 137 (243126)
09-13-2005 8:51 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4755 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 3 of 137 (243334)
09-14-2005 1:16 PM


WTF?

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 4 of 137 (243406)
09-14-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-13-2005 7:37 AM


Hi Phat,
Omniscience is a prerequisite for being God.
God knows everything, it is part of the job description.
Brian.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 137 (243421)
09-14-2005 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-13-2005 7:37 AM


Free will and foreknowledge
Is the Bible a stumbling block to God for some people---a fact that He foreknew?
I don't know about the Bible, but divine foreknowledge is itself a stumbling block in conventional religious belief.
For consider this: If God knows the future, he knows what we are going to do. Suppose I am walking down a trail and I come to a fork. I can either go left or right. But God knows and has always known that I'm going to the left. So how can I go right?
It's not like God is going to make a mistake, see me walking off to the right and scream out, "Whoa! Whoa! Where on earth are you going? You're supposed to go left!"
So apparently I have no free will, even though I think I do. I have to go left.
And if we have no free will, the concept of sin is meaningless.
But to get back to the Bible, the various prophesies of Jesus--"Peter, you will betray me before the cock crows thrice"--or something like that--seem not relevant to me as regards how seriously one takes the story of Jesus.
ed: typos
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 09-14-2005 04:20 PM

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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 6 of 137 (243429)
09-14-2005 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-13-2005 7:37 AM


For me personally, the idea that God knows whats gonna happen in the future raises some serious questions. Lets assume that the Bible is correct when it says that God can forsee future events.
1) If He knows what decisions Im gonna take regarding any particular situation then free will is not really free will.
2) If God knows the future then it is certain that he knows who are the ones that are gonna be saved and who are the ones that are going to hell. This sounds to me like Im predestined. Not only would that be unfair especially if God loves EVERYBODY like the Bible claims he does, but the idea of free will is again weakened.
3) If God knows the future then I must be programed to fulfill that future. Again this leaves no room for free will.
Saying that God knows what I am going to wear tommorow for school and that I have the choice of wearing what I want just doesnt make much sense to me. I mean, if He knows what I am going to wear then do I really have a choice?

Viva Puerto Rico Libre. Colonialism is an international crime

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 137 (243439)
09-14-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Itachi Uchiha
09-14-2005 5:31 PM


YO
jazzlover writes:
If He knows what decisions Im gonna take regarding any particular situation then free will is not really free will.
Lets assume that I knew what you were going to wear to school tomorrow. Just because I knew it, did I make the choice for you?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 137 (243445)
09-14-2005 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by robinrohan
09-14-2005 5:17 PM


Re: Free will and foreknowledge
the playwright writes:
For consider this: If God knows the future, he knows what we are going to do. Suppose I am walking down a trail and I come to a fork. I can either go left or right. But God knows and has always known that I'm going to the left. So how can I go right?
You are not God, nor are you His mind. Forget that He knows. Concentrate on which way YOU want to go!
It's not like God is going to make a mistake, see me walking off to the right and scream out, "Whoa! Whoa! Where on earth are you going? You're supposed to go left!"
Although as a believer, I have had conflicts as to what I should do. Many times, I choose to do what I feel that I should not have done. Perhaps a still small voice was ignored by me. Gotta admit, though...I made MY choice!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-14-2005 03:55 PM

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 137 (243447)
09-14-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
09-14-2005 5:47 PM


Re: YO
Simple foreknowledge is not enough to completely deny free will (although it DOES deny any form of free will that demands that future is not fixed and unchangeable).
However if you add in the idea that God created the universe things become more problematic. Given that God decided to create this universe everything that happens in it follows from that choice. Thus in a very real sense God decided all your choices in advance. That doesn't sit well with any idea of free will - and negates any apologtix use of free will as something beyond God's control.s

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 137 (243463)
09-14-2005 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
09-14-2005 6:02 PM


Re: YO
PaulK writes:
...it DOES deny any form of free will that demands that future is not fixed and unchangeable...
This is because we do not have any power to demand a changeable future. The future is how the future will be. The past is how it was. Only the present moment offers us a chance to become the decisions that we make.
We do not control the future, yet we do control our responses...our decisions. Regardless of how we turn out, we made the choices. It maters not if the choices were foreknown. It seems that you guys confuse the mind of God with your own mind...they are two seperate minds.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 137 (243471)
09-14-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
09-14-2005 6:44 PM


Re: YO
It is not a qustion of what we demand. Some concepts of free will deny that it is possible if the furture is fixed. These concepts, then, demand that teh future is changeable in the sense that they cannot exist UNLESS the future is not yet determined.
How this can possibly suggest that I am confusng my mind with God's is beyond me. It takes a strange sort of mind to produce such a blatant non-sequitur.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 137 (243490)
09-14-2005 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
09-14-2005 6:52 PM


Re: YO
Maybe this explains the mystery of communion.
We are not God, although we can be in a common union with His Spirit. He is in the future already, being past present and future living.
Things that we have not yest decided cannot be known by Him, then...you reason. Am I right? Yes...some do believe this. But the mystery of the communion gets deep. Technically, God the Father may not have even foreknown what Jesus was going to do...until Jesus confirmed it through the communion of prayer and spirit..."nevertheless not MY will but Thy will be done!"
Although I suppose that if Jesus had sinless blood, God had a logical idea of what must happen. It was Jesus choice, however.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 137 (243494)
09-14-2005 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
09-14-2005 5:54 PM


Re: Free will and foreknowledge
Concentrate on which way YOU want to go!
I can do that, but if God knows where I'm going, then I have to go that way.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 137 (243497)
09-14-2005 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by robinrohan
09-14-2005 7:39 PM


Predestination: Can we change our destiny?
I can do that, but if God knows where I'm going, then I have to go that way.
So what is the difference between that statement and the statement "If my destiny is __________than I have to fullfill my destiny?"
Is our destiny foreknown, or do we interact and shape our destiny every moment?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-14-2005 05:52 PM

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 137 (243503)
09-14-2005 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by robinrohan
09-14-2005 5:17 PM


Re: Free will and foreknowledge
If God knows the future, he knows what we are going to do. Suppose I am walking down a trail and I come to a fork. I can either go left or right. But God knows and has always known that I'm going to the left. So how can I go right?
But you still choose to go left. God's knowlegde of what choice you're going to make doesn't mean that you aren't choosing anymore. You could choose to go right but then god would have to have known.
Do you think god can allow himself to not know the future?
I mean, can he allow himself to not know which path you're gonna choose so that he's giving you free will?

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 18 by DominionSeraph, posted 09-15-2005 12:23 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
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