What if God foreknew human reactions?

I'm not sure I'm completely following you...I am certainly rejecting fatalism, and I would have to qualify determinism. I do not believe that creation of the universe entailed a mapping out of each event. I think that there are many events that are not inevitable, but determined by choice. That God has seen these choices does not remove the choice itself. What if God had exacted creation, but then turned his back so that he couldn't see how it had turned out... how would that change anything?

But God CAN'T see our future choices unless they are fixed and inevitable. And that amounts to determinism or fatalism. If the future is not fixed it is unknowable in principle.If I look away after dropping a rock on someone's head I am still responsible for my action and the entirely forseeable consequences - even if I choose not to watch the inevitable consequences play themselves out.

I admit that this can be difficult to visualise but you have to totally divorce God's time from our own. Saying God is "outside" our time does not do justice to the situation. We are 4-d paths through this universe, and we choose how these paths meander, by making choices at each point. God just sees the whole path, the string of choices.

This is why I say that you believe in human "wisdom". You do not believe in God. He is a creation of your mind for you, thus you determine His attributes, limitations, and character. God could make a mind so thick that He could not get through to it. Does this place a limit on God, or an oasis of delusion for that mind?
One more qustion: Could God make a creation that never had to see Him? If so, was it Gods fault that humans freely reject Him?If so, lets imagine a scale known as the scope of human wisdom.
Enter the question, "Knowledge of God." Subjective, right? Some subjects would say that God has a 0% chance of existance since they never saw Him. Others would say that He is real and would declare that 100%! Still others would be uncerrtain of either measure.About this scale: Who sets the rules of definition?
Human observation of nature?
All possible degrees of probability?Can one human be said to have a more accurate guage than another human? If a five year old "knows" that they have a monster under the bed, it is usually easy to teach them.If a U.F.O> abductee swears up and down that they were abducted, it is somewhat harder, often, to deprogram their belief.You know how impossible it is to change MY beliefs.Perhaps you are the same way.On the meter, is there any greater difference between 0% and 100%
than between either value and any value in between?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-15-2005 02:55 PM

There's no problem here. We each follow an absolutely fixed path, which was laid out at the moment of creation. There is no contradiction between what you are saying and my point.It is a matter of logical necessity that the future can only be known if it is fixed.

True, but my argument is that this does not imply fatalism. We are still in the moment of creation. In fact, we are part of the very creative process, defining our own paths, beginning to end. Our paths are our choice, not God's. Well, we are keeping to safe traditional views of time evolution so I will agree.

That's not a response to my post.

*sigh*
Can't you follow a line of discussion?The presence or absence of foreknowledge isn't what determines whether there's free will -- it's the nature of the future that determines that. So, taking out foreknowledge doesn't change a thing.Foreknowledge is merely an indicator that the future is set -- it's not the cause. A set future is one that's already been written. An open future doesn't get written -- doesn't become solid -- until it becomes the past.If the future is set, then it's just like the past, which is also set. Just as you cannot change what happened yesterday, you cannot change what will happen tomorrow. What will happen is just as certain as what has happened. You can only have foreknowledge of which path will be taken if the other paths are blocked -- if you cannot take them. If you can take multiple paths, foreknowledge is limited to 'mights'.
If the probability of you taking path X is 100%, all other paths are blocked, as @ 0% probability, they're impossibilities. I was explaining a set future -- not asserting that the future was set. It's a limitation on the future. The future cannot be both open and set.This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 09-16-2005 01:31 AM

yeah, but i think we agree tha god knowing our choice/decision does not remove our choice/decision from the action.My point was that, if god is capable of anything, he should also be able to allow himself to be surprised, so to speak, by what choice we make. Like, he intentionally forgets, if he previously knew, what choice we will make in a way to allow, or grant, us free will. This way his omniscience can coexist with free will, not that it cannot in another way. again my meager attempt to understand these 'crazy', IMO, stories is going to be weak, but here goes... So even thow god knows what we are going to do, we still must do them to learn, for ourselves, what we are going to do. so we cannot say that he choose the obidience, i.e. perdestination so, is this allowing the act to be free will, or does it still just support predestination?

I like to think that I can. This is how I view the future, as an open future.But allow me to get too unscientific on you and say that even when the future is open, god can know it and still allow it to be open.

Well I don't know how you'd describe a situation where the entirity of history is decided and fixed at the very start other than fatalism.And since it is God's decision which path history follows and we have no say in that, our part in the working out is to just do what it was decided we would do. To say otherwise is to deny that even God has a real choice.And finally my point is not dependant on any particular view of time. Rather it is based on the fact that a question cannot have a single definite answer and multiple possible answers. Different views of time could assert that the future is or is not knowable but they cannot assert that it is both entirely knowable and even partially unknowable.t

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But allow me to get too unscientific on you and say that even when the future is open, god can know it and still allow it to be open.

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That's not just unscientific - it's self contradictory. It can't be true.

God can know that it's set with it still being open?

I don't believe it is decided and what do you mean by "very start"? Very start of what? Why do you say this? I don't adhere to this, although it is often a part of Christian theology. But I don't believe that anything was decided for us... In no way am I advocating this. But this is not what I mean by you having a narrow view of time.Chuck God out, give me a time-machine, and I will know all of your future (and your past). I will know all of your choices before you make them. Did I suddenly become god-like and decide all of your choices for you?This message has been edited by cavediver, 09-16-2005 05:51 AM

If the future is fixed and inevitable it must be fixed from the very start of time.In the view we are looking at God decides to create a specific universe with full knowledge of everything that will happen. In choosing that universe rather than some other (and an omnipotent God should be capable of creating ANY logically possible universe) God necessarily chooses every event that occurs in that universe.If you have a time machine then you are not placed in the position of God becaue you did not create the universe (I don't see how you can have missed the fact that I continually refer to this point). However your time machine can only work as you describe if the future is fixed.