What if God foreknew human reactions?

How do you figure?If I offer you a choice between peach and apple pie, and I have foreknowledge that you're going to chose apple and so I don't even bother to bring a peach pie along, what kind of choice was that?If the alternate outcome isn't even a possibility, which it can't be because of God's foreknowledge, how can you be said to have choice?What does it mean, to you, to have choice? If God is outside of time then the future is not the future to God. We see the movie of time as a progression from start to finish, like watching it in a theatre; God sees all the frames of the movie at once.So I don't see how he can not see your future; to God, it's already in the process of happening.

Foreknowledge itself is irrelevant. It's merely an indicator of the nature of the future, and it's the nature of the future that determines if there's choice.
A set future allows for foreknowledge, and doesn't allow for choice; as you only have one option -- to do what you've always done. The future is the same as the past: unchangable. And just as you cannot change what you did yesterday, you cannot change what you will do tomorrow.
An open future doesn't allow for foreknowledge, and does allow for choice.

One scripture comes to mind, but lets discuss the context. If a name were to be blotted out of a book, this would mean that the name originally was in that book....thus, an example of a conditional change in future plans by God.It appears that the humans to whom this is addressed have one requirment. To be overcomers.

If there was no fork in the road to begin with then I cannot make a choice, I'd just keep on keepin on.But if you do bring 2 pies and you do know which one i will choose, that does not stop me from making the choice. This sounds like you're putting limitations on god.If you're goin to assume that I assume that god is outside of time then I'm goin to assume that you arguing about an omnipotent god, with which the future could be a future to god.It's like that "is omnipotence logically impossible" thread, if you put a limit on god then he is, logically impossible, and if you don't then he isn't, IIRC. Well, ouside of my opinions on the subject, the alternative outcome is a possibility if god chooses to ignore his foreknowledge, or forsake it, or decide to not even have it in the first place. When I come to that fork in the road, I decide which way to go, even if god knows which decision i make, i still make the choice.

No. I reason that the future is only knowable if it is fixed. i.e. foreknowledge s impossible unless there is only one possible future that will inevitably occur.So I then examine the implications of assuming that the future is fixed - which is that some concepts of free will are impossible, and that an omniscient creator necessarily chooses the entire history of the universe - every event within it - at the point of creation.e

Not to me it isn't. I don't know what you mean by "the nature of the future". My point is that foreknowledge does not remove the action of choosing, because both paths are still there. I just disagree, in general. I just think that god can have it both ways, without limitations being put on it.

hmmmm, that's deep. I don't really like scripture that much because I can never really make any sense of it.It seems that that quote suggests that god might not know the future. But doesn't this limit his omniscience? So, you're supporting the idea that god can allow himself to be unknowing of the future?Whats you take on that passage? I just can't make sense of it. But I think the argument is that if god decides your future, or knows what you're gonna do, then you are unable to overcome this knowledge and are robbed of free will.What do you think?

Well...this IS the definition of a Creator...Its like an author who knows how the book will end. The characters in the book have free will within their roles, but ultimately the author knows how each life will end up.I suppose that we DO have free will to believe or disbelieve this theory....and if the theory is true regardless, then what can we do? Do we have a choice to complain? Deny? Go with the flow?And if the flow only went one way, Salmon would never mate!

The characters in a book DON'T have free will. They have to do what the author decides for them.

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I suppose that we DO have free will to believe or disbelieve this theory....and if the theory is true regardless, then what can we do? Do we have a choice to complain? Deny? Go with the flow?

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Well if God decided to create the Universe where you will believe it then you don't have any other option - you will beleive it because god decided that you would. And if the reasoning is sound then you have to accept that - as I said in my first post - apologetic appeals to free will as something outside God's control are completely negated. For instance you lose a popular response to the Problem of Evil (albeit one with other problems).l

I would'nt worry about it. The only way to get blotted out is to not overcome...which would be downright stubborn!Crashfrog mentions the apple/peach pie scenario...listen to what C.S. Lewis wrote about Abraham and the matter of choice: This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-15-2005 12:56 AM

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A youth is a person who is going to carry on what you have started. He will assume control of your cities, states, and nations. He is going to take over your churches, schools, and corporations. You may adopt all the policies you please, but how they are carried out depends on him. So it might be well to pay him some attention.* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.

So you say but I have yet to see any argumentation from you in regards to why I should accept your position. The limitation is in the universe that God created. God can't make a rock so big he can't lift it; that limitation is not inherent to God but inherent to rocks. Perhaps God is able to do anything whatsoever; but there's a number of things that are not possible to be done within this universe, or to this universe, or about this universe. If God not only knows what you're going to do, but because he is also the creator, created you knowing that that's what you were going to do, God made the choice, not you.

Some certainly, but not all... I don't see how this follows... why should the creator necessarily create every event within it? Why could these not be filled in with undetermined dynamics - i.e free will. The boundary conditions are set, but the internal solution is stochastic in nature.

It was a choice that was taken away. Anybody with such foreknowledge has the power to remove freewill. Freewill is a fragile commodity... probably why God invented the chronology protection conjecture Absolutely, and if God was feeling malevolent, he would tell you the night before what you were going to have for breakfast the next morning... and then watch you desperately (and hopelessly) try to prove him wrong.

I'm not talking about causation within the universe (i.e. we're talking more about Fatalism than Determinism). The point is that the creation of that particular Universe makes these events - however they are caused - inevitable.Or to put it another way, if you drop a rock on someone's head then gravity may be the cause of the actual injury. But you set up the situation where gravity would inevitably cause that injury and thus the responsiblility is yours.

If any one is interested in reading a free will/foreknowledge discussion that has been had before, one can look towards: Message 1Slightly different, but along the mostly the same lines, so some here may be interested to read it.