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Author Topic:   Haeckels' Drawings Part II
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 94 (229050)
08-03-2005 4:35 AM


Just another questionable evo claim anyway
Skimming through these threads I may have missed some important line of thought, so posting now I hope I am not repeating something already discussed.
I was in high school in the late fifties and was definitely taught the "biogenetic law" or that "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." It was a sort of mantra. There were illustrations of embryos but I don't recall much about them, mostly took their word for the similarity and the claim that they proved that evolution really did occur, that even the way we develop from conception to birth recapitulates ancestral forms that evolutionism says we went through.
Although I continued to read popular discussions of evolutionism in various periodicals for the next few decades, many articles and columns by Stephen Jay Gould, for instance, and was quite addicted to Skeptical Inquirer, which defended the ToE against creationism, I never once saw anything that retracted that formula. Until quite recently, maybe even this discussion at EvC, if someone had asked, I would have said, yes, isn't the "biogenetic law" still a standard tenet of the ToE?
I just did some googling on the subject and it appears that although the old formula is repudiated "in its literal form" it is still very much used in an only slightly modified form, in such a way that I'm not sure it looks sufficiently different from the old to be clearly differentiated from it by anyone not reading extremely carefully.
Various online encyclopedias give the following carefully worded definition:
Just a moment...
biogenetic law
in biology, a law stating that the earlier stages of embryos of species advanced in the evolutionary process, such as humans, resemble the embryos of ancestral species, such as fish. The law refers only to embryonic development and not to adult stages; as development proceeds, the embryos of different species become more and more dissimilar. An early form of the law was devised by the 19th-century Estonian zoologist K. E. von Baer, who observed that embryos resemble the embryos, but not the adults, of other species. A later, but incorrect, theory of the 19th-century German zoologist Ernst Heinrich Haeckel states that the embryonic development (ontogeny) of an animal recapitulates the evolutionary development of the animal's ancestors (phylogeny).
Although they are officially repudiating the discredited formulation, it looks to me like they are still holding on to the main form of the same old claim. What does it mean that the earlier stages of embryos of species advanced in the evolutionary process, such as humans, resemble the embryos of ancestral species, such as fish? "Ancestral species" is certainly making the same old assumption about how this demonstrates the evolutionary relatedness of the species, if in this case only their embryos, and doesn't the reference to a supposed resemblance to FISH embryos suggest the discredited "gill slits" notion, simply retained in less specific guise? In other words, although they acknowledge that Haeckel went too far, they haven't given up on the basic claim his exaggerated drawings were intended to support.
Another online encyclopedia that reproduces that identical definition is the one at Answers.com, and their page on the topic also gives the following dictionary definition of the "law" without the slightest hint that it is discredited.
Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions
biogenetic law
n.The theory that the stages in an organism's embryonic development and differentiation correspond to the stages of evolutionary development characteristic of the species. Also called Haeckel's law, recapitulation theory.
That should certainly give someone the impression that the "law" is alive and well who doesn't read down to the later disclaimers.
Despite the disclaimers, they certainly do hold onto the idea in general however:
The fact that the literal form of recapitulation theory is rejected by modern biologists has sometimes been used as an argument against evolution by creationists. The argument is: "Haeckel's theory was presented as supporting evidence for evolution, Haeckel's theory is wrong, therefore evolution has less support". This argument is not only an oversimplification but misleading because modern biology does recognize numerous connections between ontogeny and phylogeny, explains them using evolutionary theory without recourse to Haeckel's specific views, and considers them as supporting evidence for that theory.
So it doesn't amount to a whole lot that Haeckel fudged his illustrations as what they were intended to affirm is affirmed by the ToE anyway in only barely modified form.
As for the topic of fraudulence, I would guess that perhaps "fraud" is too strong a word but that the certainty with which the ToE is believed in spite of the actual evidence might lead its aficionados to some fudging of facts in the clear conscience that they are only serving the truth in any case.
In any case the answer to all this is in the direction of emphasizing that there isn't a single claim evolutionistic biology makes about evidence for descent of species that isn't just as well explained by design. That is, of course embryos of many creatures show initial rough similarities. That's because they have rough design similarities. They have a head and limbs and in vertebrates a spinal column and similar internal organ arrangements. Similar design is all that evolutionists are using to prove descent but it only proves similar design. They have no real evidence except the extrapolation from similar design and the taxonomic hierarchy. Even the claim that the similarity of the genome between supposedly "related" species adds to the evidence for descent is easily answered by pointing out that if there is similarity of design in the phenotype why not also in the genotype? There is NO necessary reason to conclude that descent is the explanatory factor. Design is absolutely equal in explanatory power.

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Wounded King, posted 08-03-2005 5:10 AM Faith has replied
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2005 5:10 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 94 (229058)
08-03-2005 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
08-03-2005 5:10 AM


Re: Just another questionable evo claim anyway
Yes I thought the encyclopedia entry was excruciatingly precise. There are at least two other online encyclopedias that give the exact same discussion word for word. Probably more than that.
Von Baer's view is clearly differentiated from Haeckel's I thought so I'm not following you there.
It appears that, as this discussion has progressed, objections have come up against the idea of "gill slits" claiming that it is now considered obsolete. If it's still considered legitimate as you seem to be saying I suppose you'd have to bring it up with others here. Sounds like this whole area is far from resolved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2005 5:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2005 5:30 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 94 (229061)
08-03-2005 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Wounded King
08-03-2005 5:10 AM


Re: Just another questionable evo claim anyway
It was a sort of mantra.
==========
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. It was neat and catchy and people thought that it would explain everything, to the point where they ignored the numerous exceptions which kept turning up. But catchiness of a slogan, or an idea, is not enough to sustain it permanently.
No, but that isn't the purpose of a slogan. It's to impress the idea on the student's little head as it is taken to be a fact they should learn well.
Although I continued to read popular discussions of evolutionism in various periodicals for the next few decades, many articles and columns by Stephen Jay Gould, for instance, and was quite addicted to Skeptical Inquirer, which defended the ToE against creationism, I never once saw anything that retracted that formula.
You didn't for instance read Gould's 1977 book 'Ontogeny and Phylogeny' which gives a very detailed history of the recapitulationist movement and its subsequent fall from grace and eclipse by those interested in the actual mechanics of development.
No I didn't, and if I knew of the book I probably had no idea that it was about the historical discrediting of the idea. However, since the idea continues to be held in merely slightly modified form, it sometimes starts to sound like a tempest in a teapot. It's certainly clear that Haeckel was dishonest in his illustrations and that's a big deal, but since the theory has only been slightly modified anyway, despite his dishonesty, it's not as if we have a major paradigm shift here.
Although they are officially repudiating the discredited formulation, it looks to me like they are still holding on to the main form of the same old claim. What does it mean that the earlier stages of embryos of species advanced in the evolutionary process, such as humans, resemble the embryos of ancestral species, such as fish?
I'm not even sure what this encyclopedia is talking about, the biogenetic law is very specifically Haeckel's theory. In fact given that the encyclopedia talks about humans being more advanced in the evolutionary process than fish, a pretty untenable claim without distinguishing between ancient and modern fish, I'm thinking that I won't be going to the Columbia Encyclopedia as a source of knowledge.
Well there were three online encyclopedias that had that same entry word for word and I would suspect many others. It appears to be the official representation of the topic at the moment. And as for the rest of your thought here, PaulK appears to disagree with you as he thinks the encyclopedia did a fine job.
doesn't the reference to a supposed resemblance to FISH embryos suggest the discredited "gill slits" notion, simply retained in less specific guise?
=======
No, it suggests the still highly credible notion that the embryos of fish and humans display a number of highly similar features, including the developing pharyngeal structures.
Apparently what Haeckel did was simply make this ongoing assumption a little more tangible shall we say. However, PaulK thinks "gill slits" is still a correct description of what is seen in the embryo.
Another online encyclopedia that reproduces that identical definition is the one at Answers.com
Well it would be since they are both based on the Columbia Encyclopedia.
OK, possibly but I think the other was the Merriam Webster.
Since the dictionary definition is just that it can hardly be expected to provide the sort of information one expects from an encyclopedia.
So it is still valid to say "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny"?
So it doesn't amount to a whole lot that Haeckel fudged his illustrations as what they were intended to affirm is affirmed by the ToE anyway in only barely modified form.
=====
This is simply your own interpretation, the 'modifications' to the relationship between ontogeny and phylogeny in Haeckel's theory and that of modern evolutionary and developmental biology are considerable.
I'm judging from what I posted, and the presentation shows very little change. My interpretation is quite good based on what is there.
In any case the answer to all this is in the direction of emphasizing that there isn't a single claim evolutionistic biology makes about evidence for descent of species that isn't just as well explained by design.
This is only true if you believe that to explain these all evolutionists do is say, "it evolved that way". The problem is that they aren't explained by design. Certainly 'they were designed that way' is given as an explanation, but it explains no more than simply claiming that 'Goddidit' but we can't understand his reasons for doing it.
In many discussions it appears that evolution is deduced over and over again from similar design. If you throw that out there is not a whole lot left to how the theory is derived.
Modern evolutionary theory has a mechanism for both the genesis of evolutionary features, in terms of mutation, and the spread of such feature through populations and the selective maintenance of specific populations or sub populations on the basis of these features.
Yes, it does. All they truly observe however is the variations on the theme of a species by all these mechanisms.
What exactly does 'Design' do to explain anything? What mechanisms does it propose? How was a 'designed' trait brought into being? The best answer I have ever come across are those such as Randman's interference at a quantum level, for which there is absoloutely no evidence, which might at least be amenable to some sort of experimental validation.
I'm content just to point out that similarity of design is all that is observed and that in itself offers no support for the idea of descent -- and that descent in fact has no real evidence, just this kind of extrapolation from observations that are just as easily explained by design.
But of course I'm a YEC, so for further explanation I take it back to God's creation of the kinds. No further mechanism is needed. What we are seeing genetically is the playing out of the potentials for variation of the species/kind originally built into the genome of each species/kind, brought to the fore (phenotypic expression) by the "mechanisms of evolution" such as natural selection or gene flow or genetic drift or bottleneck etc. The original genome of a kind/species has been severely depleted in allelic possibilities over time so that its variability is much reduced from the original. Except when severe selection pressure isolates a type and threatens it with extinction (which often get called new species ironically enough), a fair degree of variability remains. But I'm not trying to discuss that here, only mention it to give an alternative view from evolution's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Wounded King, posted 08-03-2005 5:10 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2005 5:55 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 36 by Wounded King, posted 08-03-2005 6:52 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2005 7:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 94 (229062)
08-03-2005 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
08-03-2005 5:30 AM


Re: Just another questionable evo claim anyway
OK.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2005 5:30 AM PaulK has not replied

  
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