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Author | Topic: Why is America so backward? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
I do not have the answer to this question even though I have studied--in a limited way--my country's culture. Nor am I ignorant of my country's good points--and very good points they are, too.
But I think back to our founding fathers, how reasonable they were--people like Jeffferson and Franklin--great Deists. I wish we had that same spirit now. But now nobody can be elected unless he professes himself a born-again Christian. And he has to say it in practically every speech. That is shameful. The country was founded as a secular nation, but I have doubts about our future. What went wrong? This message has been edited by robinrohan, 07-15-2005 03:33 PM
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
That's quite a question.
I’m not enough of a student of history to be able to make an informed hypothesis as to the origins of the issue. I can say, however, that the vast majority of people do not realize that the United States was not actually founded on Christian principles.
The First Amendment Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion... Article VI, Section 3...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. The Constitution plainly states that the Founding Fathers wanted no basis or reliance on religion. The expectation was to protect religious freedom by wholly separating the government from religion. In this way a religious majority could never legislate their faith on others. Religious politicians often counter the separation of church and state by claiming that, in this country, we have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. This is false — those who have no religion are just as protected by the Constitution as people of faith. I think the common-knowledge belief that America is based on Christianity comes from certain aspects of our past. We have always had a Christian majority in this country. Many of our first settlers were, in fact, puritanical Christians fleeing religious persecution in their European homes (the irony of Christianity persecuting non-Christians while claiming to be persecuted themselves is lost on most). Certainly the Cold War years ingrained a false religious heritage. Under God was inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Commies were demonized as Godless. The truth is, of course, that the Founding Fathers were fiercely opposed to any kind of religious influence in the government.
John Adams (the second President of the United States) Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’ From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States) Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State. From Jefferson’s biography:...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’ Jefferson’s The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom:Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. If one studies the actual beliefs of the Founding Fathers, it quickly becomes apparent that America was never intended to include the religious stigmas and rules it has today. Various examples of legislated Biblical morality (sodomy laws, including laws against oral sex, laws against the selling of sex toys), for instance, are still on the books in some states, because the people and legislators either misinterpreted the Founding Fathers design, or simply ignored it. When it comes right down to it, I think the root cause may be the I’m right, and you’re going to Hell if you disagree mentality of many Christians. Some see the establishment of America as a Christian nation to be their God-given duty, and don’t recognize the right of others to have their own beliefs. I, too, wish the attitudes of the Founding Fathers were prevalent today. I certainly don’t want a government that makes its decisions based on faith — only 33% of people are Christian, after all.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
33% of the world
but 76% of Americans (also from your site.) gee ... if one were to make wild unsubstantiated claims of apparent correlations based on superficial factoids ......... LOL. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
76% of Americans
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I can say, however, that the vast majority of people do not realize that the United States was not actually founded on Christian principles. They confuse the Puritans (17th century) with the founding fathers (18th century), who were mostly all Deists.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually the Puritans were rather latecomers to North America. The settlement at Jamestown (a secular commercial venture) was earlier and of course, the Spanish settlements even earlier.
The Puritan model though is as far from anything resembling the US as anyone can imagine. They were despotic and traitorous with no semblance of a democratic society. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
The Puritan model though is as far from anything resembling the US as anyone can imagine. They were despotic and traitorous with no semblance of a democratic society. which is why they got run the hell out of england. but you can't tell me that you don't see some vague similarities between our national philosophies, and puritanical ones?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Actually the Puritans were rather latecomers to North America Yes, but they were the most successful and most influential (Massachusetts Bay Colony, begun in 1630).
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
but you can't tell me that you don't see some vague similarities between our national philosophies, and puritanical ones? Only in nightmares. The idea that we might return to a Puritanical government is the greatest threat to the US out there. There was absolutely no difference between the Puritans and the Taliban or the Inquisition. We have had periods of such behavior in the US, Prohibition is a good example, our current Drug laws and the Homophopia currently in vogue are others. Fortunately, historically we have muddled through such aberrations and perversions. The Puritan example was one of the main driving forces behind the creation of the Amendments to the Constitution referred to as the Bill of Rights. It was to make sure that such theocratic despotism could not be forced on the rest of the nation that lead George Mason to stand in opposition to the initial draft of the Constitution. Unfortunately, George Mason's contribution to our Nation is not taught in many schools today. Of all the founding fathers, he stands as the single most important contributor, more influencial than Jefferson, Washington, the Adams, Franklin or Monroe, yet he is almost unmentioned. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I don't think history really supports that. While MBC began in 1630, Jamestown was 1607. By 1630 the Virginia colonies were thriving. St. Augustine was on it's way to becoming a major city.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The Puritans of Massachusetts, who were Calvinists, set up a community of total conformity. If you didn't conform, you were punished and sometimes banished.
They even had dress codes.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
We have had periods of such behavior in the US, Prohibition is a good example, our current Drug laws and the Homophopia currently in vogue are others. Fortunately, historically we have muddled through such aberrations and perversions. you know, if something happenes enough times it might be safe to say it's a trend.
The Puritan example was one of the main driving forces behind the creation of the Amendments to the Constitution referred to as the Bill of Rights. yes, well the battle may be won but the war's not over. the puritanical influences in this country are still fighting against the bill of rights.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The initial Virginias Grant included all of the area later settled by the Puritans. The area was divided into two sections, a Northern one and a Southern of. There was a buffer or neutral zone between the two.
The first settlement in the Northern Territories was Ft. George on the Kennebeck River IIRC. It lasted about a year or two but was abandoned. It was John Smith who coined the name "New England" for the Northern sector. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I don't think history really supports that. While MBC began in 1630, Jamestown was 1607. By 1630 the Virginia colonies were thriving. St. Augustine was on it's way to becoming a major city. Maybe so. I was thinking MBC became bigger (more populated). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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