The location of the Tree of Life

I suggested that you quote your verses as a courtesy to our friends, not because they are incapable of looking them up. In fact, most people probably don't bother to look them up, so your presentation is much stronger if it's all right there. -------------Your explanation of "spirit", in your own words, is actually much better than when you quoted somebody else's words. I could find one or two things to nitpick, but I'm not going to do that.I can appreciate your difficulty in expressing yourself. (For me, the words flow easily, but I don't know what language they're in when they come out at your end. ) If you can develop a little more confidence in your communication abilities, I won't have to use the pliers to drag straight answers out of you. So, now that we have a sort of working definition of "spirit", can we finally get to my original question? What is there in your own definition of "spirit" that suggests that children have a dead spirit or an unborn spirit? I'm asking.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Maybe now we're getting somewhere. I think you've agreed that Adam and Eve can be taken metaphrically? (And that has nothing to do with whether or not they literally existed.)I see Adam as a metaphor for all mankind.When he was born/created, God breathed His Spirit into Adam. Similarly, when a baby is born, God breathes His Spirit into it.Adam had a "personal relationship" with God, not just an intellectual one. Similarly, children have an instinctive relationship with God.When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they became conscious of the difference between good and evil. Similarly, as children learn more about their world, they become conscious of the consequences of their actions.God "punished" Adam and Eve by cutting them off from eternal life. Similarly, as humans mature, they cut themselves off from many of the joys of life by worrying about the consequences.Jesus said that we must be like little children to enter heaven. He was simply continuing the metaphor.To enter heaven, we need to go "back to the garden". We need to "undo" the consciousness-raising that came from eating the fruit. We need to become more like children.The idea that children are born with "dead souls" completely negates the metaphor. Unless God breathes His Spirit into every human at birth, Genesis 2 and 3 becomes just another story about a guy who ate an apple.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

You have got to be kidding. Are there really people who don't see "JESUS" there? I have to really squint to see any black lines. (Of course, the same negative-space experiment can be done using any word.)

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Did you think you could hide "JESUS" by putting it upside down? It's just as obvious as in the first example. (sdrawkcaB, forwards, upside down - all the same to me. ) I have a higher opinion of God than that.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I don't label myself. If that answer isn't "in depth" enough for you, well boo hoo. There are plenty more threads where this one came from, so you have plenty of time to get used to me in small doses. If you're worried about running out of posts, don't waste yours.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Okay, so we'll agree not to nitpick too much about the stuff we're already close togrther on? Mea culpa. I should not have used the term "eternal life", because that's not what I'm going after here. (Notice how the old dogmas can still creep in after all these years?)Since I am arguing for physical death and not spiritual death in Genesis 2 and 3, mentioning "eternal life" was a distraction, if not downright inaccurate.So, let's pretend that i just said "life". Joy of life, of course.Unfortunately, organized religion has a long history of pushing "eternal life" at the cost of misery in this life. Organized religion has always supported the oppressors, with the idea that the next life will be better.But Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." He was talking about this life, not the next. I disagree, but there is no room here to get into that. Stay tuned, and we'll talk about that at a more appropriate time and place. To me, it seems pretty clear: if we accept the metaphor of child-like innicence in the garden, then when Jesus spoke about the children He was referring to the same child-like innocence.Exactly how do you know that "He wasn't continuing any metaphor"? In another thread, somebody has suggested that those who trumpet their "faith" the loudest actually have the weakest faith. I tend to agree. "The amount God comes to us in life" is based on what He decides, not on your faith or your conception of faith. Speak for yourself. The "devil" hasn't been near me in years. I guess he's too busy planting fundy dogma in the minds of people with weak faith. I hope that you too will grow out of that idea. Absolutely. I ask again: How can you look into a child's eyes and not know that? Agreed. It's a goal that can not be reached, just as a fruit can not be un-eaten. But the seeds of the fruit can be planted and produce new fruit. But that "breath" was the only thing that God breathed into Adam. If Adam had "the Spirit of God" in him, where else did it come from? (Chapter and verse? ) I disagree 100%.It's like trying to seek the wind. (There's that spirit=wind thing again. ) The harder you look for it, the less chance you have of "finding" it. You can only "find" it by standing still and accepting it.You have to empty yourself before you can be "filled". The eastern philosophies have the right idea on that. (I can almost feel Ifen patting me on the back right now. )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Thanks for the English-to-fundy translation.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Because there isn't room here for all of them. I choose the ones that are most appropriate. Exactly. What we do here on earth, in this life, is what is important. And Jesus is preparing the next life for us, we are not. Your own quotes confirm exactly what I was saying.And don't try to figure out what I believe or don't believe. You're not very good at it. Instead of "studying other things", why don't we just read what He said? He said we must be like a child. Period. You're just trying to read other things into it to change the simple meaning, to twist it for your own purpose. And isn't that exactly what Jesus wants us to do? But that isn't what He said, is it?Children tend to take "hurts" more seriously than adults do, and "hurts" received in childhood are more likely to stay with you. On the subject of "hurts", it would seem that we should be less like children, not more. It's not what you're talking about. It's what you're doing. It's like whistling in the dark. Exactly. We are called by God. We are chosen by God. Nonsense. God calls. God chooses. God decides, not you. No supreme act of faith on your part will change what God has decided. Moving mountains is a small feat compared to finding God. You could rearrange every mountain range on earth before you could find God by looking for Him. Much easier to let Him find you. So, what exactly can you see about "the way I live"? Been peeking in my windows? Or are you just making stuff up? So hatred of dogma is a bad thing, in your world? Does that mean that dogma is a good thing, in your world? That's right, you don't know me very well. So don't speculate about where Jesus wants me to be or whether I am making the devil happy. "Knowing God" is not an intellectual thing. Children have the "breath" (= "spirit") of God in them from birth. How do you think we can see God in their eyes if He isn't in there? Now you're making up stuff again. You're claiming that Adam "learned" the Spirit of God? Chapter and verse? Actually, no. Adam did not "know good" until he learned to distinguish it from evil, after he ate the fruit. Does Genesis actually say that nothing "evil" happened to Adam before he ate the fruit? He just didn't know it was evil. You're all over the place here. First you say that you have to choose God, and than you say that you can't do it without God's help.What you have to do is empty yourself of all the wrong ideas that you have about God. You have to clear the junk away from the door before you can open it to let Him in.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

@#$% gay serpent! About that poll: Freud and I would say, "Sometimes a snake is just a snake."

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

You know, your posts make a lot more sense when you're not being defensive. I don't have time to respond to all of your accusations, but I'll try to make some sense of the muddle. That's just an empty accusation unless you show what I have taken out of context and why the context is important. Why do you think God gave us six commandments about how to treat each other and only four about how to treat Him? Why do you think Jesus said, "Do unto others...." if it isn't important what we do here on earth? You don't have to speak for everybody else. If anybody else has a problem figuring out what I believe, they're welcome to ask. See, here's what I mean about you contradicting yourself. First you say nobody can figure me out and then you say they can, in the same paragraph.Chill, man. No need to attack everything.-------------Now, down to business: On the other hand, if I take that statement "be like a child", it could mean... "be like a child". You're adding complications by trying to figure out what Jesus was "trying to teach us". Don't ignore what He said. Are you saying that Jesus contradicted Himself? He plainly said that we have to be like children to get into heaven. Where does that not coincide with the rest of His teachings? We are like that. When Jesus tells us to be like children, He wants us to emphasize the child-like qualities, not erase our past.(This is not rocket science, is it? If any of the lurkers can't understand it, I hope they'll ask for clarification. ) As always, I leave it to the "peanut gallery" to decide who has backed what up. If anybody else wants to take me to task, they are free to do so. "Hurts do not affect you later"? I'm pretty sure they do. And what do you mean by "you have made oaths in your life"? (This is just a question. No need to be defensive. I just don't know what you mean by that.) I never said we don't have free will. That's a thorny issue that others have tried to hash out with limited success.I said that God chooses us before we choose Him. Do you seriously think you can choose God if He doesn't want to be chosen by you?Our control does not supercede God's control. Was He lost? A little bit at a time, with a shovel. If you want to turn this into a pissing contest, show us on the map the ones you've moved. The pissing contest continues?Who do the lurkers think shows more anger? You or me? I use one angry face and you jump on that. How many smilie faces have I used? Yes, I hope everybody else can understand the bits that you don't. To the Forum: The devil has not bothered me in years.(He seems to hang out mostly in fundy churches.) I take responsibility for most of the bad things that have happened to me. Been doing that. Read the thread. The Secret^TM is (write this down): The devil can't touch you unless you let him.God chooses us. But the devil can only be chosen by us. (Ooooh. Sooo profound. ) Read the book of Job. Suppose I said, "If riVeRraT wasn't a child molester, he'd be a pretty nice guy." Is the "if" really important in that sentence?It's called a "left-handed insult" - maybe you've heard of it. Pardon me for catching you. Who's "WE"? You and Mr. Science Fiction Mr. Ex Nihilo?Maybe if you'd show instead of just telling.... Wait a minute. I asked you if you believe that Adam "learned" the Spirit of God. Yes or no? Step 1: Give up the notion that God is lost. When He wants you He'll find you.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Well, what I meant was that God chose to test Job first, and then Job chose God over Satan.In terms of "salvation", I don't think the book of Job says Who chose whom first. (But notice my subtle use of capitalization? )And of course, in the book of Job, Satan was a tool of God, not an "adversary".

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Kind of like God's "dark side"? Like God didn't know who Satan would choose?That's why I said:

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God chose to test Job first

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I'm thinking in terms of God being in control of the whole situation.-------------But your point is well taken: the book of Job is not such a good example after all.riVeRraT: Please don't read the book of Job just to prove me wrong. Arachnophilia has already done that. (And I'm still alive. )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I thought I implied fairly clearly: It's important because God thinks it's important. (Why do you think that's important to this topic? ) Read my lips: He meant what He said:

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Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

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This is not rocket science. He said what He said. He meant what He said. If you think He meant something else, tell us what, and back it up. I repeat: Show us where I'm taking it out of context. If you'll read what I said:

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When Jesus tells us to be like children, He wants us to emphasize the child-like qualities, not erase our past.

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Where did I say anything about harming others? Nice imitation of Rrhain. Or is your point missing me? The onus is on you to throw your point, not on me to catch it. Continue being curious.I don't like the term "personal relationship with God" any more than I like the term "born again". Both of them are meaningless - but that's not the topic. I have faith in my shovel. I do. Why do you think I'm wearing out my keyboard? Yes. That is my intention. Do you know the difference between a judge and a jury? The jury decides what is true and what is false. The judge decides what to do about it.I'm "jurying" the fundies, not judging them. I have no power to pass sentence. The devil can do the most harm to people in church? With all the buckets of faith in there? Quite frankly, that never occured to me before.What I meant was that the fundies invite him in, and worship him by making him seem more powerful than he is.The reason he isn't out here is because he's afraid of me. Well, I'm trying to rescue you. (And maybe a lurker or two.)You say you've been a Christian for a whopping 1.5 years. I was at that stage when I was barely old enough to read. Wait a few decades before you try to tell me that I don't understand what you understand. Fair enough.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

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If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. (Matthew 18:8)

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Do you think Jesus meant that literally? How many hands and feet do you have?And how does cutting off your hands and feet relate to being like a child?Do you really not see that there is a point where the context logically ends?But, if you will read my post, you will notice that I was quoting from Mark, not Matthew:

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Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

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And a little farther down we read:

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Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. (Mark 10:19)

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Notice that Jesus mentions only what we are supposed to do in earth, in this life.And a little farther down we read:

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Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Mark 10:21)

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Do you think Jesus meant that literally? Have you given all of your posessions to the poor?-------------

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And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. (Matthew 18:9)

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There is something about blindness that I have been wanting to bring up:You have seen the word "metaphor" spelled correctly many times, and yet you continue to misspell it. You have seen the word "innocence" spelled correctly many times, and yet you continue to misspell it.I'm not saying that you should be a perfect speller. I'm just using your consistent misspelling as an illustration of how you look at the Bible:Do you really think your spelling is right and mine is wrong? Or do you just not see that yours is wrong?Do you really think your Bible interpretation is right and mine is wrong? Or do you just not see that yours is wrong?

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And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (Luke 6:41)

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-------------One last comment: What a sad, sad, sad outlook on Christianity you have.I'll let Jesus answer your question:

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Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

My point was about context. You criticize me for taking things out of context, then you go to a different book for your context.And not only that, you get the incident wrong. The incident I refered to in Mark 10 coincides with Matthew 19, not 18.And not only that, your "context" - whether relevant or not - doesn't make your point. Jesus said that we must be "like children" and you go on about forgiveness. Or do you think children are especially forgiving?If you have to go to a different book and a different incident and still not make your point, you're not correcting my context. You're grasping at straws. Yes, we build up treasure in heaven by what we do on earth, in this life. What's confusing about that? Jesus did come and say that. Do you need a personal invitation? (Please stop and actually think about that. Don't just give a knee-jerk reaction.) You miss my point again. I said it wasn't about spelling. It's about blindness.Why do you consistently misspell certain words. Consistency does not suggest carelessness. I was trying to relate your consistent misspelling to your consistent misreading of the Bible (and of me ). PS, I know. Nice catch. (There goes my sainthood.)One error in a large number of posts is an honest mistake. A consistent error is a symptom.Hopefully, somebody lurking will get the points that you miss. (By the way, I was expecting you to point out the irony in me pointing out the beam in your eye. You should have asked how I could see it past the beam in my own eye. Points off for missed opportunity. )-------------So, can we maybe face in the direction of the topic for the next twenty posts or so?This all started with you claiming that Adam and Eve faced "spiritual death" by eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.I countered by showing that Jesus wants us to be more like children.My reasoning is that Jesus wants us to be more spiritual to get into heaven. It seems to follow, then, that He thinks children are more spiritual than adults.On the other hand, you claim that children have "dead spirits" or "unborn spirits" or no spirits at all.I do not see how you can reconcile that with what Jesus plainly said.Do you think you can indulge me and, without all the touchy-feely autobiographical stuff, explain what you think Jesus meant by "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein"?

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.