The location of the Tree of Life

A personal relationship with God.Probably just like Adam got sent out of the garden, where he once walked with God freely, he now has to look for God.In this link, you can see how important it was in the OT to seek God with you heart mind and soul:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: soulWhere as adam did not have to originally.
Most of the OT is explaining how men seek God, and his will. All things they would not have to do if Adam and Eve didn't screw up. It's all their fault
Or maybe we were designed that way.Thank you for your kind words. I try not to give my take on it (spirit) and instead refer to biblical references, in fear of communicating the wrong thing, or message. I also will post the scriptures if I refer to them.

I think I said that way back in th thread. It can be taken metaphorically, or more accurately, an example for all mankind. That is why the story is so important to the bible, and understanding who God is.Now on to your description, I am sorry, by I am going to have to break it down sentence by sentence. I could debate this, but I will go with it so far. Well,not exactly, children wonder who God is, and are very open to the idea. Adam definatly knew who God was. But I will still go with it. Yes, I agree, and their innocents goes away. Here's where you start adding stuff to the story, something you warned me not to do.
Eternal life, and joys of life cannot be compared for purpose of this story you are producing.
If someone offered you 2 choices, joy of life, or eternal life, which one would you pick?
I see the similar story line you are creating, but it just doesn't compare. Jesus did not die for us to have joy, he died so that we might have eternal life, just by believing in him, BIG difference. Disagree, he wasn't continuing any metaphore, he just wants us to get back to the innocents of a child, so that we may believe. The amount God comes to us in life, is based on our faith. The devil attacks us our whole lifes, and puts things in our minds that hinder our faith. We need to revert back to a child like thinking, and innocents, "get rid of all the baggage" type thinking.Adam knew God. The only way we get to know God is by faith. Big difference.Do you think all children are born knowing God? Yes in a way, but we will never attain not knowing evil. We will always know evil. What we need to do is reconize the affects evil has on us, the who, what, why, were, and when of evil, so that we can reverse its affects on us. We can do this with the help of Jesus, and through forgivness. This is why I was mentioning forgiveness before.We can never revert back to the state in which adam and eve lived in.Can you see the difference of just knowing what evil is, and experiencing it?i.e. we hear a story on the news of murder, and we know its evil, but do we know how it feels?
i.e. a child gets smacked in her face by her alcoholic mother, for no reason. She now knows and feels evil, and then carries a scar with her for the rest of her life. She is affected by it forever. She now can live her life by oaths, exactly what evil does to us.
I don't think I have ever witnessed phsychology, or any twelve step program free people the way Jesus can. I am not saying the those things are bad either, we need all the help we can get. But peoples lives can be changed in a single bow of the knee towards heaven. But we still know evil. The breath of life eminates from God's spirit,but it is not the spirit of God living in you. We must seek it to fully know it.When I was a child I always wondered who God was, I did not know.

Yes, I agree. I do not label the story of the day man screwed up, but it was the day that man exorcised his freewill gift from God. It was going to happen, we know this is our nature.But understanding how we were before we used our freewill, helps to understand what life could be like, what life is going to be like afterwards, and how God wishes that we live.I think its an awesome gift. Most people I know are happy with it.

Why do you pick and choose quotes from Jesus?
We could have a quote war.
He also said what we do here on earth is building up treasures in heaven. And that he is preparing a place for us. So if you believe one thing he says, why not the other? Fact: we all suffer, whether we are getting eternal life or not.
Suffering has little to do with whether or not your going to heaven.
Suffering is only evidence, that there is nothing you can do about suffering. Well aince he didn't give a specific age of a child, it could mean many different things. We have to study all the other things he says to see what it is about a child that he wants us to mimic.Infants are born not knowing evil, but they also do not know good. They barely have a conscience.I think children, in the later stages of life have a simple desire to live life in a pleasing loving manor. Anything short of that is corruption from the people raising that child and his/her surroundings.I think Jesus is mostly refering to dropping all the hurt in your life, for we make oaths based on our hurts, and live life out a certain way because of that. Dogma included. I don't know why you are mentioning trumpeting faith, it has nothing to do with what I said.It is not based on what he decides, it is based on our faith, however, coming to know God is not merely a human effort. Many are called, but few are choosen, or few choose you might say.Jesus said we could move mountains with our faith. Have you ever stood atr the base of a mountain and tried to move it with your faith? I would definatly debate that one. I can see alreeady things in your life, the way you live, that were caused by hurts in your life, all the work of the devil. For one, your hatred of dogma.
Don't feel bad though, I think almost everyone has been hurt by the church. The trick is not to look for God there, but to praise the God you alreay know there. But many people seek God through the church, and man has taken advantge of this over the years. Sucks.I do not know you very well, so I could be wrong. But if you are in a place that is actually where Jesus doesn't want you to be, then the devil is happy, and would leave you alone. But good times never last. It is the only way to GET to know him. Once you find him, you need faith the see him accomplish the things he promises. I see this all the time in my life. My faith is weak. Pretty simple actually. Infants don't know much of anything.
They are a miracle, and a joy of life.
Maybe you feel God when you look at them, but they don't Most likely from walking with God in the garden, and learning from him. IT doesn't say how long Adam was in the garden, but I am sure it was more than one day.
Adam lost the spirit when he ate the fruit. Adam was born knowing good. The spirit is good, the spirit is love, thats all Adam knew until his eyes were opened.
Babies are not born with this comfort of love. It has to be shown to them. Just as is the bad. They are innocent. That might be one way to find it. We all travel different paths. There is no one exclusive way to finding God.The eastern philosophies are only based on parts of the truth.
emptying yourself is not a bad idea, except that some people are incapable of doing that. It is only with the help of God that some of us can start to do it.To empty yourself is to become like a child, back to innocents. But we are human, we cannot forget, only forgive. Thats where the freedom is.
Then you will know the truth, and it will set you free.

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"12 The man said, "The woman you put here with meshe gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."Adam knew exactly what tree it came from, and God knew Adam knew. Could you give some examples? I am not an expert on the bible, but what I have read in my studies so far, seem to match. The OT, and NT refer to soul and spirit in the same manor. YEs I agree, I should have said we are all born BY the breath of life, not WITH the breath of life. Would have been clearer.

So in your opinion, what does it mean to be born again? What does this verse mean? :
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.There is obviously 2 kinds of seed.
I have experienced this in my life.Oh here is a verse that separates mans soul, from Gods spirit:Proverbs 20:2727 The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man ;
it searches out his inmost being.I think there is a difference beteen soul, and spirit.
Breath of life, and spirit of God. Heart and mind. I don't think it can be read the other way, but if you say so, then you must have read it that way, so it is possible then. But as a child, without anyone telling what it meant, I always felt that Adam knew what he was doing from reading the story. Maybe he felt is was ok, since the woman gave it to him, and God put the woman there.
He does blame God to a point by saying the woman you put here gave it to me.He blames everyone except himself, even though I think he knew. Typical man, lol.
Only the strong can admit their mistakes.

That does not give you liscense to take them out of context. What we do here on earth, in this life is important why? Thats my point, no one can figure out what you believe because you contradict yourself, and pick and choose bible verses to suite your needs, and create your own God. You even take half of the sentence and ignore the second half. You do not have some sort of secret mind that no one can figure out. Plus God is the only one besides yourself that really knows you, he's the only one you'll have to answer to. Um what?
Thats what you are doing. Hello, look in the mirror.
If I take that statement "be like a child" It could mean a thousand different things. 900 of those things will not be biblical, or match anything else the Jesus was trying to teach us. Those are the ones you seem to choose. I try not to use the quote "be like a child" unless it coinsides with the rest of Jesus's teachings. I have backed that up throughout this thread, and you have not. You taylor that phrase to suite your needs, and your way of thinking. Very fleshy Oh if life were that simple. Your view of a child is either narrowminded, or you only choose to look at certain aspects of a child. Many children suffer greatly, and cause harm to others. Does Jesus want us to be like that too? Don't we have to clarify what Jesus means when he says be like a child? Does he mean be like Adam? To what extent. We could start a whole other thread just on this concept, and we could relate that statement to the rest of the bible. Right, so this is why I am clarifying that I think Jesus means before the hurts start. This is all assuming that the child was raised in a biblical loving manor.Hurts do not affect you later, becasue you have made oaths in your life to not allow the hurts to enter you to deeply. But they can also be the straw that breaks the camels back.
Forgiving people, wipes the slate clean. Then you are fresh to get hurt all over again. I am not talking about forgiving people with your mind, but with your heart. Once you know the Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth, then you walk with the truth in your life, and it is then hard for you to get fooled, and be taken to the point of being hurt. as long as you seek God in everything you do. So God protects us. This is all part of being born again, and starting a new life, and a new way of thinking.
You might call it fundie dogma, or whatever. But the truth is being disguised from you. From some people who are not worthy, it might be just that, a big lie, a part of their own agenda, but other people are genuine. The only way to know is by asking God, and having a relationship with him. We cannot, and should not rely on humans, as we are all flawed.This moral is shown in the very story of Genesis. If you feel that I am trumpeting my faith, then you are being convicted by the Holy Spirit, because I lack the faith I desire. I am not worthy of anything. There you go only taking part of the sentence again. You have to choose to follow God, before God will choose you.The harvest is full, but the workers are few. Of well there went free will out the window. I guess you don't believe in that either. We are not in control right? That way of thinking is about as bad as fundie dogma. I completely disagree. Have you found God? Have you moved mountains? Have you tried either?God is huge, but he is small, he is everything the alpha, the omega, our faith needs to match that before we can move a mountain. But it is not necssary to find him, or to start a building up of your faith. There are many stumbling blocks along the way, plus we have to contend with our lives. The way you live is represented by this statement. You said it with an angry face. Why? There is obviously anger and hatred in your life. Whether its towards me or people who you think are like me. Something that would be blasted away if you ever came face to face with the creator. People die in his presence, why, because of just that. I am not claiming anything more than what your responses have generated. Your words speak for themselves.Please tell the forum again how the devil has not bothered you in years. You have not one thing bad happen to you. There has been no attacks on your innocents? Share with us your secret of life, so that we all my come to find the peace. We could start another thread on it.
You say the devil has not bothered you, is that because you don't believe in him, or that you do, and know some secret to keep him away?You are the one boasting things around here, but claim that I am boasting my faith, like it makes a difference in the over all scheme of things.I garuantee that you walk with strongholds in your life, and live by oaths. I think we all do, whether we realize or not.This all stems from what happened inthe garden. We now have to seek God to get to our own personal Eden, where we can walk with him. We have to go through the tests. Adam and Eve started a dominoe affect. Or it was God's will for us. So yea we can blame God for everything, but I am starting to see the purpose for it, and it all comes from love for us.Does anyone here know pure love? That is why I said "if". Calm down grasshopper, theres no need to get upset if your clean. Why did you miss the word "if"? The breath of life (spirit) and the spirit of God are 2 different things. Thats is what WE have been trying to tell you.Please explain to us the difference between the lamp of GOd, and mans innermost being in this verse:Proverbs 20:27
The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man [ Or The spirit of man is the LORD 's lamp ] ; it searches out his inmost being. Making stuff up? A child could see that Adam obviously spent time with God in the garden. THe bible says he walked with him. Unless Adam was made knowing everything, then he must have learned from God, and experienced his spirit in his fullness on a daily basis. How can you not see this? Well according to your own words, God's breath is the breath of life=spirit, and Adam was not allowed to eat from the tree of life=spirit. He was deprived of the very breath that gives us life, the lamp of the Lord, the Holy spirit, the spirit of God, his daily presence. Hence he died a spiritual death that day. IT is obvious, because it is still the same today. Not sure if it did or didn't.
I would think that bad things may have happened to him, i.e. cut finger or whatever, but evil? He had the full protection of God.
But on the other hand, serpents deception was evil, and it happened to him, and like you said it didn't know it was evil, until after he ate the fruit. Or he didn't know evil, until he choose to be disobedient to God. This is true today, when we are disobedient to GOd, evil is then allowed to enter our lives. He was told that it would be bad. I think he knew the difference between bad and good, but not good and evil. There is nothing there that says he didn't know bad, only evil. God told him he would die. That sounds bad to me, so he must have known bad.Just like a child who treis to stick his finger in the socket, and you tell him no. The realization that happens after he sticks his finger in the socket, is probably something close to what Adam experienced.
We could punish our kids, and they might learn to listen next time, but probably not. They more than likely be disobedient again. It will take many more times before they start to listen. Some people never get it. This is just like seeking God.
Everything in this life can relate to one another. It's only scientists who study God's creations that have a hard time relating stuff, because they do not always have all the clues/evidence/answers.
This is not a stab at science, but a reality. I love science, but I do not pretend that it knows all the answers, and most realistic scientists would agree. I am not all over the place here. Iam saying that I do not know what it takes for an individual to find God. I only know what it took me. I can share that, and hope that it helps people, but thats it.I did not have to empty myself to find God. I was relatively happy with my life when he came to me. I was casually seeking him though.For other people, they have to hit rock bootom, and be lying in a gutter, before they find him.For other people, an Angel can come to them and tell them.I would think that most people expereince an emptying once they find God, not before they find him. But I just don't know for sure.Most testimonys I hear go that way. It is the realization of his existance, the presence of the Holy Spirit filling you up with his glory that emptys you.Just like you agreeed with me, there is no exclusive way of finding God.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-23-2005 08:41 AM

Well I have been, but you don't agree, its fine. You didn't answer the question. I said why is it important. I did not ask you if it was or was not important. One second your angry, next your laughing pretending to be all cool. mmmm?
1 People have been asking you
2 no one can figure you because you contradict yourself
3 If you were more consistant, we could figure you out, or if you stayed on track with your thoughts.
4 I am not attacking you, just talking to you. You just blow my mind away.
Ok then I will act just like a child, and that will get me into heaven then. Please say yes, so I can demostrate what the children of the world are doing today, please.Or you can explain to us, what he meant by saying we must be like children.Which one is it? Answer my previous question and we can go from there.
I never said it doesn't coinside with the rest of teachings, I said the meaning of that statement must coinside with his teachings, or else you are taking it out of context. *blink*
You can't be serious are you?
You really think that?
Jesus wants us to harm others?whew, I need a drink. Ok let me rephrase that one, I was not clear enough.
Hurts do not affect you later, meaning the hurts you recieve later in life. The ones you recieve early certainly affect you more. We grow cold, and hard later in life, so when we get hurt, comparing apples to apples, it doesn't hurt as much, as we have grown and are better equiped to handle, and or reject it.Oaths in our lives, example:
A girl you go out with breaks up with you and hurts your feelings. You forgive her, but then you say, I will never let a girl do that to me again. You have just closed the door to your heart. You may wind up rejecting people before they even get a chance to get close to you. Jesus was not like this. I don't think he wants us to be like that either.
If we truely give the problem to God, then we don't have to make an oath about it.
This kind of oath to yourself thing, happens on many levels, with many different subjects. It can start from when you are a child. There is a gray area in our way of looking at it. I kind of agree with you, as I stated before, that coming to God is not merely a human effort, God has something to do with it. However, this does not get rid of the faith factor. Funny how you keep missing my point, but I will take the time to explain it to you.Was he lost? Do you have a personal relationship with God. I am asking, because I don't think you even claim if you believe in God or not, so I was curious.I have not moved any mountains.
What I wanted to ask you, is have you tried?
Have you ever stood at the base of a mountain and tried to move it with your faith?
There is a reason for asking, not to put you down if it didn't move, but to point out to you all the things that went through your head when you did try. This the test of our faith in action, and deepest thoughts about God will come out at that moment. Who cares what the lurkers think, and who cares what I think. You only have to worry about God. The smiley faces are sometimes almost sarcastic. But I like them. I am unaffected by them or the angry face. I think that even though we have a difference of opinion, that we posess the capability to get along. I am cool with you bro. There is a lot to be said about this statement, please correct me if I am wrong.You seem to throw the word fundie a lot, as if it was meant to talk down to people who claim to be, or who are but don't know it.
It is a put down, the way you use it.You are also judging all those churches, so in one fell swoop, you ahve just judged thousands of people. Way to go!The really really sad part is that you are right about the "fundie" churches. I went to several before I got lucky and found one were the people seem genuine, and full of love. It is a leader building church, and a church that will help you develop your spiritual gifting to its fullest potential.The other half of it is, that yes the devil hangs out in church big time. He praises God every Sunday. Now get ready for the harsh words....He is there because of people like you.....What you say?
Yep, you reconize that he is there, and instead of going in there, and getting him out, you stay home, and let the devil reign in the church, where he can do the most harm to people.
So you have this incredible ability to see this happening, and yet do nothing about it, you are only looking out for yourself, and ignoring "the least of my brethren"Well I said it, now you can tear me up. I am sorry but I do not find the usefulness of lefthand insults in an intelligent conversation.If riverrat was, but hes not, so its cool.
You did not catch me. Maybe your defensive? Now that was funny
I actually laughed out loud, not because I agree with you, just because I saw the humor in it. Not sure really.
But I wouldn't compare him to a baby, but then again you could. ITs not clear to me.
Did Adam have a belly button? God calls us all the time. I see that now in my life. I just did not find him, or seek him enough for whatever reason. It was the time I needed to take to find him.
I never said he was lost, bad analogy.

Yes, I know God thinks it's important, and I think it is important. But why does God think it is important?
Why should we? Awesome, youmanaged to take the verse out of context again. Let's look at the full statement now, since I think you do not get it.Matthew 18:2-4
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.Oh! so we have to humble ourselves like a child, not just be like a child. Kind of goes along with his other teachings about being humble.He is speaking of being trusting and unpretentious, "like a child"
But then he continues:5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.So he is not refering to the bad things that children do, as I stated before.Then he continues on about sin:"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.So now he really is very clear about not sinning. He must be talking about that aspect of a child.This is what I am saying about the way you interpret the bible. You choose to take the words "be like a child" literally, and ignore the rest of the speech. You can then taylor that saying to whatever suites your needs at that particular moment. You didn't, I did, then you agreed.
Here:I wrote: Many children suffer greatly, and cause harm to others. Does Jesus want us to be like that too?You respond: We are like that.Unless you meant something else. Yea, I did get it from him, thank God he has been leaving me alone lately. I have seen other people do it too, I just figured it was a forum thingy. Theres more for you. Nothing really. They both judge people based on the evidence.
Does the term group of peers mean anything to you? Jury:
1 : a body of persons sworn to give a verdict on some matter submitted to them; especially : a body of persons legally selected and sworn to inquire into any matter of fact and to give their verdict according to the evidence
2 : a committee for judging and awarding prizes at a contest or exhibitionThe sentence you pass is on your self, for you will be judged in the same manor. There might be more to it than meets the eye. I am not puttting you down for it either. Hmmmmmm...buckets of faith?
This is what I am talking about. The people in the church are no diffeent than the people outside the church. All will be judged by God. but what purpose does the church serve, if people can't go there and worship God freely, and love each other?Thats what it is all about, loving God, and loving others, period. If you do not go to church and leave them there to suffer, because they don't get it, then you do not love them. People like you need to be leaders, so that others might get it, how we are supposed to be. It's not easy, that is for sure. I think you would like the church I go to, but it could change. Would I use that as a reason to stop going, or not believe in God, I hope not. I will try to be aware of it. There is somewhat of a movement going amoung churches to battle precisely what your talking about. No bro, I was born and raised Catholic. I am 39 years old. Did the catholic church help me to find God?
I was calling myself "Christian all my life" Was I one?
I was even calling myself "born again" from the day I made a declaration in public to accept Jesus as my Lord, some 7 years ago. But was I "born again"?
I recieved a full on baptism of the Holy Spirit 1.5 years ago. From God, not from some prayer or church or whatever. It wasn't until then that I got it.
Do we find God through Genesis? Well for me, I say no. I was fascinated with Genesis, and revelation all those years, but it never helped me to understand who God really is.
(I will never really understand who God really is, he keeps surprising me) It wasn't until I studyed Acts, that I started to comprehend. Catholics pray their whole lives:
"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" blah blah blah. forever and ever AAAAmen......
Do they even really know what/who the Holy Spirit is?
Some do, but I would say most don't.
Go ahead and ask them.
What do you think the Holy Spirit is?
Have you recieved a baptism of it?How can you be Christian when you are barely old enough to read? you have such a great understanding of God then? Thats kind of an ignorant statement I think. Thank you, I appreciate your kindness. But I am in a place where I feel just fine. I am a stubborn bastard, hard headed. I wouldn't be anywhere I didn't want to be. I do not feel decieved at all. All I feel is love where I am at. My family and freinds would all agree, that since my transformation, I am a different person, for the better. I have been tweaked by God. I am now using my gifts to gloryfy him, and I am allowed to where I am.I am not boasting here, but just trying to give you an idea of what I have been doing for the last year and a half.
I have put my 35 years of keyboard experience to use for the Lord, and I am a worship leader at my church already, and we rock out on Sundays.
I have my own small ministry, where we build and fly radio control planes together. How cool is that?
I am Vice president of Hope for the Nations USA, where we help orphans around the world, by making them into tomorrow leaders, so that they may raise up the areas they live in. We even build villages for them to be self sufficient.
I look at these things as job descriptions, not titles. I enjoy it all.

Does that make what Matthew said irrelevant? That’s funny, you say that, then in the next verse you quote, it explains how to build up treasure in heaven. He absolutely meant that to him. If Jesus came and said that, I might consider it. If my faith was strong enough. but since Jesus isn't standing in front of me, and no one knows the dates of when he is coming but the Father, then I will live my life like he is coming tomorrow, and 1000 years from now.I have however elected to stay in business, so I can earn more money and give it to the poor, on a steady basis. I won't go into how much, but it is a considerable amount of time, and money, while still being able to raise a family. I (actually we, my family) do this for the love of God, and the love of people. Lmao
I type fast and do not spend the time correcting. I am more of a logical thinker, and mathematician, science too. Spelling was never my strong point, but my reading comprehension always scored excellent.I have 5 kids, my own business, worship leadership, a small ministry, a charity org, and money more things. You think I have time to spell check? I don't care about spelling, your or mine. I do not use spelling as an indication of how smart a person is. Or is it an indication if he knows God or not. Children are not good spellers, so I am on my way, see ya later. I think I went over this. Your bible interpretation is fine with me. We are discussing it, which I enjoy thoroughly. In our discussions, it makes me look up verses, and study them in a new light, all the time. This helps me to reinforce and test my faith. To see if what I am believing in is true. So far, so good.It also allows me to see others points of view, so that when I talk to people, I can better respect how they feel, and maybe help me to understand why they feel.Your interpretation is exactly where you need to be right now. My only job is to love God, and love others. I would never reject you for what you believe in, that is prejudice. I do not consider myself to be on a different level than you (although you feel you are above my level, because you "went through what I am going through" lol). I consider myself a sinner, and if you commit one sin, then you commit them all, so we are all the same. I do not have to agree with what you believe in, but I will not hate you for it.If I am right about things, then you will remember it when you learn it, because you walk with the knowledge now. If you are right about things, then when I experience those things and find them to be true, then I will remember it. We will sit down and have a glass of wine in heaven, I hope. That’s all fine and good, and I understand your point perfectly. But if we read into that verse deeper, you see that the child has to receive heaven. So that means before that point, he does not know what heaven is, as do most children, they are ignorant.
In other words, when you see heaven, you must receive it like a child, not all children know what heaven is.
And yes, we know that the children go to heaven.PS, you spelled possessions wrong, oops. What does that mean?
Ah, nothing.

No, we were talking about what Jesus meant when he said, "be like a child" remember? You told me to back it up, and I did. Mark, Matthew, 19-18, is irrelevant. Telling us about what chapter came from where, and why, is making you look like you are reaching for excuses to still and make yourself look right. Yes, in 19 He tells everyone to leave the children alone because the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. In Verse 18 he explains why it relates to older people like us. In both verses he says we must be like a child to get into heaven, in verse 18 he elaborates a little on the reason why.Isn't this clear enough for you? Especially forgiving. Lets look at Matthew 18:2-7

quote:

---

Matthew 18:2-7

​

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

​

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

​

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

---

So all this is part of the same speech, so we could assume that I am not taking anything out of context.He says be like a child. What specifically? To humble yourself like a child, this will make you great in heaven. Another indication of what we do here on earth is dictating how it will be in heaven for us.Then he goes on to say that whoever causes the children to sin, it would be better for him to be drowned.You do know that unforgiveness is a sin right?
Not forgiving someone, is not loving them, the second greatest commandment. If you do not understand that, then maybe you have to learn more about love? You told me to back it up. It's your fault.
I think your grasping at straws. Oh, you finally get it. I meant face to face, I am sure you knew that.
I have contemplated that verse a lot. I have given up a lot to follow him. I pray about it. I believe I am doing the right thing in my life concerning that statement.
Pointing that out to me is like pointing the speck in my eye, which would make you a hypocrite. Because I obviously do not know how to spell well. I admit that. That does not mean that I do not comprehend well.
If you say I am mis-understanding you, then that is fine too, you are probably right. It is through this awesome conversation that we can sort these things out. You seem to be mis-understanding me also. Well that was the first time that I bothered to spell check your words. I find it so funny, that every time someone points out to me that I miss-spell words, that when I go and check the post that they tell me in, there is always a miss-spelled word. I did that to prove a point. We all miss-spell words, and we all are not perfect. Let's not accuse each other of that anymore, it doesn't mean anything. If the miss-spelling causes you to not understand what I am saying, then we need to clear it up.It goes back to what your saying, do not point out the speck in your brothers eye. [qs] My reasoning is that Jesus wants us to be more spiritual to get into heaven. It seems to follow, then, that He thinks children are more spiritual than adults.
[/sq]That’s awesome, really. I am adding to that by saying that the reason why is that, we are to humble ourselves, and bring ourselves back to a state of innocence. To point more Jesus like, were we aren't with corrupt minds, and unforgiving. Those are the aspects of a child that he wants us to mimic. The spirit is there, but it is not born yet. Their souls are beautiful and innocent. They are like a sponge ready to absorb whatever is taught to them. Jesus wants us to be like that. Remember he was talking to a bunch of people steep in tradition, and set in their ways. The law was the law. He wanted to show us in where the spirit of the law came from, that is love.
He wanted everyone to reject what they had learned all their lives, and revert back to a childlike state, and start with love.Look at the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit fell on all of them. What did automatically start doing after that. They sold everything and started helping each other out of love, and they were happy. The were playing together like a bunch of kids.
This probably was the closest thing to how God wants us to live, since the garden.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-25-2005 09:20 AM

But you did, and I showed that.Now your going to have to make me do something which I can't stand, and that is go back and read the thread, and pull out all the little things you said.You even agreed that being like a child means the bad things too, when I showed that Jesus clearly did not mean that at all. But it is about spelling. My comprehension is fine, they are 2 different subjects, but I guess you missed MY point. Um no, I merely pointed out to you that they are irrelevant, and don't hold water in this discussion. You just chose not to accept that, then accuse me of missing your simple point. Again, I do not really care about our "readers" lol. I am talking to you. If anyone else has something to say, let him or her say it. OMG dude, you are starting to make me wonder.
If you don't understand this verse, then how do you expect to understand the rest of the bible?1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.Just like a mother has all her seeds in her, they aren't born until you do something about it.Tell us in your own words, what you think that verse means.Another thing, I have been asking you a lot of questions, yet you do not answer them, what’s up with that?No as far as your recapped position, that’s fine, but lets make it clear, that it is all your opinion. If it was fact it would be irrefutable. No reasonable doubt. So I am going to quote you, then follow it with a verse that contradicts what your saying, and add some of my own comments. then you can tell me if you position is indeed just your opinion, and is subject to be wrong. Notice, that I am not saying that I am right here. [qs] 1. God breathed His spirit into Adam.
[/sq]

quote:

---

7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

---

Breath of life, and spirit can be seen as 2 different things.
It says he breathed the breath of life, not his spirit. The metaphor ate fruit, and received the breath of life. He also had kids with names. He just might not be a metaphor. Objection!!!! Objection again!!!!
That’s your opinion. Back it up with a verse.
Here is another verse to see that breath of life, and spirit of God are 2 different things:

quote:

---

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

---

That is when we started to discuss about when Jesus said "be like a child" You seem to think that it means be like the spirit of God, but then agreed that it could mean the bad things too. But Jesus clearly explains why it is necessary to be like a child. You just aren't accepting it, and then go on to say that just because he explains it, doesn't mean he could have meant something else, or that we could just start adding to it. Something you told me not to do, add to the bible, something that you accuse fundie churches, and dogmatic people of doing. So then I told you, that you have created your own dogma, to suite your needs, in other words, made your own God for yourself. Which is fine really, I don't care. Yes, I agree with #8, but not #9, #8 doesn't stem from the phrase " be like a child". To be like a child is to put yourself in a mindset, where you can become more spiritual, not that being like a child automatically makes you more spiritual.
Children do not know anything unless they are taught it. That's another reason why God calls us his children, he wants us to learn, and seek from him.
He also warns us not to disturb this process with sin. This is clearly wrong thinking. Or it is non-biblical, or just your opinion, again.

quote:

---

Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

---

The earth is under the heavens, not in it. There are many more verses that describe this. No where in the bible does it say we go back to the garden, so it is something you are just making up.

quote:

---

Genesis 2:8
Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.

---

Eden was on earth, not in the heavens.
East of a metaphor Well this almost sounds good, but it is really wrong.
#1 we do not go back to the garden
#2 Yes we must be born again
#3 born again does not mean "be like a child"Please show me any verse that indicates the correlation between born again, and "be like a child".I would say however, that you should humble yourself like a child, so that you may become born again. But it is no guarantee. Take out the "like children" and I agree. The spirit is there, but it is not awake yet, which is separate from the breath of life. The difference between a child’s spirit and an adults, is like a sponge without water in it, and one with water in it. I agree. If that’s the way you want to word it fine. I would just say original sin. But the phrase original sin, does not explain much.
It took me awhile to understand it. I don't know. That's not the way it happened for me. I think the way we become born again is as individual, as our individualism. There is a choice involved though. Kind of yes, but that makes Jesus coming down and dying for us just a big scam, useless waste of human flesh.Maybe we now we have the blessing of being able to choose it, but before Jesus, I do not know how you became born again, or made that choice. There were all those sacrifices to make to be free from sin. Those sacrifices must have represented what could be dear to us humans.
Now we have to give up other things, like ways of this world, which have become very dear to us humans, to follow Christ.And yes, choose life(eternal), Jesus, the way, the light, the truth. Well I think I have expressed myself quite clearly, and we may never resolve our difference of OPINION, but you keep asking for verses, but then do not post your own, just interject your opinion all the time.

Well this is where I can see your comprehension trouble. In your statement "how can something be born again if it isn't born yet" you fail to realize that the bible verse you quoted, says exactly that.
The first time we are born, it is a physical birth, of perishable seed. It is our body’s, that which goes back to the earth/dust.
The second time we are born, it is of imperishable seed, our spirit, eternal life. It is a completely different birth, of different seed, but we experience both of them, so we are born twice, but the 2 are very different from each other.
The bible mentions many times that our beings have several aspects or forms to it. there is the mind, the body, the heart, the soul, and then there is the spirit. The spirit is that which we are all a part of, and it is from God. We are born with the spirit inside us, but its like a phone that doesn't ring. We have to pick it up and call God, then he starts calling us back, and communicating with us. But ultimately. it is God that decides when your spirit will be born. He will give you that experience when you are ready for it.Just curious, how to you know how many people are watching this thread in particular? In the box at the top of the page? I don't know, I had to, kind of.
I heard a story, I do not know if it is true, but Helen Keller, once she started communicating with people, was asked, do you know who Jesus Christ is? She responded, oh, that’s his name. I think appears more than that. the phrase be like a child appears less, and is it not in the same context of being born again. To be born again is to be born of God.
Here:

quote:

---

1 John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

​

1 John 5:4
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

​

1 John 4:7
[ God's Love and Ours ] Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

​

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

​

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

​

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

​

Galatians 4:29
At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.

​

John 3:7
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You [ The Greek is plural.] must be born again.'

​

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

​

John 3:4
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

​

John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

​

John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, [ Greek of bloods] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

---

What do they mean by all that???
Pretty bloody obvious to me what is said, but not so obvious what it means.I am not going to debate the rest of what you said, because we would be beating a dead horse. I backed up everything that I said, and the I spoke the words into existence. I now have faith that God will do the rest. I speak the words with love.Well its off to church, have a great Sunday.

Or if we create our own.
John 3
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

quote:

---

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

​

1 Corinthians 1:26
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

​

John 15:15-17

​

15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruitfruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

​

Romans 9:15-17
15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

---

Did you forget before, that you pointed out to me, that coming to know God is not just a human effort? I am sick of you asking for a chapter and verse. You do not refer to chapter and verses, but live by your own opinion, so what good is it to post a chapter and verse? You'll just turn it around to suite your own needs and wants anyway.I was praying about you yesterday, and I got the impression based on our conversation, that you used to go to church, and subscribe to the dogma, or try to see its relevance, but decided it was all a scam, so you invented your own way of believing in God. Too bad, because then the truth is hid from you. Your belief is based on only partial truths. You have created your own dogma.
Sometimes the dogma isn't dogma, but the truth. It doesn't take much to corrupt this. It was said once, that it takes 7 truths to cover up one lie. That is the power of a lie.
Are we the only species on this planet that lie?
What does that mean?
How tough it is to just love one another. It is not about victory, I am not in competition with you.
In order for me to win, you would have to win also, and we would celebrate together. ??? Being like a child is only part of the requirement to get into heaven. There are many more qualities, and obstacles to over come before you can become born again, or enter heaven.

quote:

---

Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

​

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

​

Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

​

Matthew 19:23
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

​

Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [ Some manuscripts to. 14 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely.]

​

---

It's not so obvious. The obvious way of thinking would be to say, your are born first, then become a child.I wish you would just admit that being like a child, does not make you born again.I know many people who act like children. They are not Christ like at all. It is impossible to stop sinning. Or nearly impossible, was there 3 people in the whole history of the world that are sin free?You are assuming that all people who go to church are born of God. that’s pretty judgmental. But that’s what people who are looking for God expect to find in the church. They really should clear that up when you walk in the door.
My pastor says we should have a sign over the door saying "now entering the church of Jesus", and the sign should be placed so you read it on the way out.However, God does protect us when we trust in him to do so. Being saved is a continuing process. The minute we stop acting Christ like, are we still saved? I think not. The bible says this:
Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.The moment you do not have, or act like you have the spirit of Christ in you, your out of context How do we act like Christ?
Simple, it must follow these 2 guide lines, if it misses either one, your out.Love God
Love othersIf you experienced anything short of that in the church, then you know the deal. You also have the gift to recognize this, and I feel the Lord wants you to do something about it. Yes. The world meaning things of this world, and things created by this world, and not of God.A lie is not from God. Sure, sure God create us, and gave us the ability to lie, but is he liable for it? That what this world is coming to, everyone is liable except the person who did it. That is the goal that the devil is working for, because maybe one day, we are going to put God on trial, and blame him for everything that we don't like. Crap, that happens right here on these forums.
But it is hypocritical of people to do that. They take the free will given to them by God, and choose to blame it on him. If we didn't have free will, I don't think we would even be alive. We'd be like a tree or a rock or something. (yes I know trees live)
Nobody wants to be responsible for their actions.So world has nothing on us, when we are children of God. And now the full speech, and the moral of that statement. You are only partially right.

quote:

---

God's Love and Ours
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

---

Let me ask you a question, and I expect an answer. Do you know what true love is?
Would you kill your son for God?
Would you send your son to die for others?Does a child know what this is?
They have a clue, but they are immature in knowing what love is all about.I will tell you, I do not fully comprehend what true love is. The more I learn, the less I know. Just when I think I know, I don't. Love has a way of just getting deeper, and deeper, just like knowing and seeking God. Because God is love.I wish I knew what love like that is. The bible says when we meet Jesus face to face, we will have an instant understanding of that love.In fact the more evil we experience, the more we will appreciate that love, and understand it. That is why it was our destiny to eat of the tree.I have seen awesome glimpses of what the power of love can do. Love can conquer all, it is the greatest force on this planet.
God is love.Does a tree know that? I bet it does.*edit*
My spelling sucks. I used to be even worse
At least I am improving.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-26-2005 04:26 PM

How old are you?
Have you had what you condider to be a baptism in the Holy Spirit?