Jesus; the Torah, Nevi'im, and Psalms (Part 2)

Just don't bypass Malachi 3:17.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, I just dont't believe you can pull Malachi 3:1 out of the chapter without looking at the context. If you read Malachi 3 it is obvious that it has nothing to do with Jesus.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Go for it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It's pretty much the same folk talking amongst themselves.But it is interesting to learn what others know. I know I learn something new with each of these threads.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think there is yet another option that needs to be considered. The writers of the NT don't have to be funning you, or dishonest. They can be absolutely honest, but mistaken just as folk today. They could honestly believe that the lines in question are prophecy and confirmation of their beliefs.They were quote mining, that's for certain, but they also had entirely different viewpoints on the place of historical writing. They viewed scripture as a living thing, an attitude that persisted up until very, very recently. It was not considered forgery to simply borrow from an earlier work, or to write something in the style of an earlier author and so attribute it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Please. Would you agree that should be "some Christians"?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You can find some of it hereOne of the most important things to understand about the Jewish religion is demonstarted by the Talmud (either the Babylonian or Palestinian) and that is the Jews freely recognized and acknowledged that there were differing opinions on virtually every conceivable issue found within scripture.In their view, there is NO correct reading of Scripture and Many correct readings of Scripture.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm glad to see some discussion of the Talmud come up. IMHO it is not just important but essential to understanding the Bible and the attitudes, purpose and direction of the people involved in creating Scripture as well as interpreting Scripture.In the Judaic tradition, there are two main functions. One is preservation of the reference standard, Scripture. It is to be maintained exactly as it was in the earliest records and no changes are to be made past a cut off date.But that is simply maintenance of a reference standard. It does not involve interpretation or meaning. It is an object, a painting, a photograph, a document.The other fuction is the Rabbinical tradition. It is the Talmud, the discussion, the interpretations. It is looking at the reference and then trying to make sense of the content. It was, and still is, primarily an oral tradition. It is the job, the function and the purpose of a Rabbi to study. A secondary function of the Rabbi is to teach, but study is and remains the primary duty and job.If there is anything we can learn from the Talmud is that it makes the phrase "On the other hand ..." an essential part of religion. It is an acknowldgement that interpretation depends on point of view, location, circumstances and culture.When we look at the life, teachings and message of Jesus we see a Rabbi in action. It is an ongoing interpretation, a Talmudic discussion between scholars.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Only when you take it out of context and ignore the rest of Malachai.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Prophecy is far more accurate if you do it like most Christians. First wait 'till it happens, then search through until you find something you can make fit. If it means taking things out of context, no problem.Prophecy after the fact can be made 100% accurate.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Absolutely, just as I said.After the fact prophecy can be very accurate. A good example was the specific verse that had been mentioned, Malachai 3:1. It's said to be a messianic prophecy, yet if you read it in context and read all of Malachai, it's absolutely positively NOT related to either Jesus or John the Baptist.There is little doubt that later writers went back and tried to build a case to support their marketing.edited to fix spelling errorsThis message has been edited by jar, 12-28-2005 11:30 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I do not understand your comment. Are you saying that Jesus referenced Malachi 3:1?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Chapter and Verse please.Just so we can be sure we are speaking of the same passages.This message has been edited by jar, 12-29-2005 03:56 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, repeat it for me or provide a link to the message where it is given. Sorry but I do not know exactly which Chapter and Verse you are refering to.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

First, neither the passage from Luke or the one from John refer to reinterpreting earlier prophecy or some dual meaning of prophecy. In the passage from Matthew, if you read the whole thing instead of cherry picking quotes, you will see that Jesus is speaking allegorically, and again, does not say that you should apply dual meanings to specific prophecy.All are after the fact examples and simply do not support, IMHO, your assertions.I really believe that what is recorded of Jesus life, his message, is more than enough to justify a belief in his divinity. There is no need or reason to manufacture additional layers that cannot be supported, claims like trying to squeeze his geneology into some predicted lineages or searching for these really weak asserted prophecies. Why not just acknowledge that he is the one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion